I suck at bluffing...

[ZebraAss]

Table is very weak. Is this a -EV play?


Level:4 Blinds(50/100)
Seat 9 is the button
Total number of players : 8
Seat 2: EBJS5 ( $1735 )
Seat 3: lou10 ( $1140 )
Seat 5: AbundantMom ( $315 )
Seat 7: paulieballs ( $990 )
Seat 8: crazyme9876 ( $1545 )
Seat 9: MMatl ( $2045 )
Seat 4: telliho429 ( $450 )
Seat 1: ZebraAss ( $1780 )
Trny:10010725 Level:4
Blinds(50/100)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to ZebraAss [ 7h Qs ]
lou10 folds.
telliho429 folds.
AbundantMom folds.
paulieballs folds.
crazyme9876 folds.
MMatl raises [225].
ZebraAss calls [175].
EBJS5 folds.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 7d, Ac, 5c ]
ZebraAss checks.
MMatl bets [175].
ZebraAss calls [175].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 3s ]
ZebraAss checks.
MMatl checks.
** Dealing River ** [ 5d ]
ZebraAss checks.
MMatl bets [325].
ZebraAss is all-In [1380]
MMatl folds.
ZebraAss does not show [ 7h, Qs ] two pairs, sevens and fives.
ZebraAss wins 2605 chips from the main pot with

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]
Table is very weak. Is this a -EV play?


[/ QUOTE ]

You've gotta be thinking more than just that. Did you have specific thoughts on the villian? Did you see him play previous hands?

[ QUOTE ]

Level:4 Blinds(50/100)
Seat 9 is the button
Total number of players : 8
Seat 2: EBJS5 ( $1735 )
Seat 3: lou10 ( $1140 )
Seat 5: AbundantMom ( $315 )
Seat 7: paulieballs ( $990 )
Seat 8: crazyme9876 ( $1545 )
Seat 9: MMatl ( $2045 )
Seat 4: telliho429 ( $450 )
Seat 1: ZebraAss ( $1780 )
Trny:10010725 Level:4
Blinds(50/100)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to ZebraAss [ 7h Qs ]
lou10 folds.
telliho429 folds.
AbundantMom folds.
paulieballs folds.
crazyme9876 folds.
MMatl raises [225].
ZebraAss calls [175].
EBJS5 folds.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 7d, Ac, 5c ]
ZebraAss checks.
MMatl bets [175].
ZebraAss calls [175].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 3s ]
ZebraAss checks.
MMatl checks.
** Dealing River ** [ 5d ]
ZebraAss checks.
MMatl bets [325].
ZebraAss is all-In [1380]
MMatl folds.
ZebraAss does not show [ 7h, Qs ] two pairs, sevens and fives.
ZebraAss wins 2605 chips from the main pot with

[/ QUOTE ]

Ugh. Perhaps not, /images/graemlins/wink.gif.

Ummm. Yeah, I don't like your play here.

How about folding preflop?

How about folding on the flop?

How about force folding on the turn?

How about folding on the river?

Yugoslav

[DyessMan89]

You call a raise out of position with a Q7o? I would have folded pre-flop, and I wouldnt have called the flop. I would have either folded or raised (If for some reason I called pre-flop) depending on my read of him.

[microbet]

I wouldn't have been there preflop. Were you largely just protecting your blind for future benefits?

His bet on the flop is pretty weak if he has the ace, with a flush draw being there. If you thought that was the case why not raise? Or were you thinking of this as a bluff-call?

If you were thinking of it as a bluff-call, you would have to bet the non-scary turn so he would think you were protecting a made hand, no?

When you check-raise on the river you can be fairly sure he doesn't have much of a hand, but it might be fairly easy for him to think you don't have much of a hand either.

[Unparagoned]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Table is very weak. Is this a -EV play?


[/ QUOTE ]

You've gotta be thinking more than just that. Did you have specific thoughts on the villian? Did you see him play previous hands?



[/ QUOTE ]

Of course everyone is going to tell you that it's a bad play (and it might be...). I think what's important is this quote by yugo. There has to be more going on here. What hands might he be playing here? What makes you think he has something you can make him fold? There is a ton of contextual information you need in order to determine if this was a good play. Clealry, in this case, it was an excellent play. Would this play be profitable long-term applied generally, no. All I'm saying is that information here is incredibly important and I don't know if we can evaluate the play without quite a bit of it.

[zaphod]

[ QUOTE ]
Ugh. Perhaps not, .

Ummm. Yeah, I don't like your play here.

How about folding preflop?

How about folding on the flop?

How about force folding on the turn?

How about folding on the river?

Yugoslav

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm, there seems to be a patteren here.

[ZebraAss]

He raised every single time it was folded to him.

He played in a hand with 2 other players in a min-raised pot when he was in LP. Flop was K 4 2. He checked with AA. One person bet, he called. Turn was another blank, he checked then called. River both checked.

The player to my left will call anything( called down an all in with 54248 board with A9 and won vs KQ) so if I had any opportunity to get into a pot with him I would take it.

I was going to raise on the flop or turn but I thought it would have looked too suspicious which is why I waited until the river. So yes it was a bluff-call.

I mean, he was absolutely awful. He made it to 3-handed. He min-raised a pot, I pushed with AJ he called with 10 J and lost. He was overly passive and had awful hand selection.

I was confident he was not going to call, whether that meaning he had a weak hand or he didn’t want to risk all his chips, i just thought he would fold and I was right.

(I won /images/graemlins/smirk.gif)

[Irieguy]

I like everything about how you played this hand except the amount of your check-raise on the river. That's not how much somebody with a monster would bet. If I was your opponent, I would have called your check raise with pocket 10's or Jacks, and that's not what you want.

Otherwise, very nice.

Irieguy

Disclaimer: For everybody except Zebra, refer to Yugo's answer for guidance on how to play this pot.

[The Yugoslavian]

Well yeah, there certainly is a pattern. The problem is that the OP didn't give what I'd consider necessary information upfront to warrant not folding on many of these streets.

Yugoslav

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]
He raised every single time it was folded to him.

He played in a hand with 2 other players in a min-raised pot when he was in LP. Flop was K 4 2. He checked with AA. One person bet, he called. Turn was another blank, he checked then called. River both checked.

The player to my left will call anything( called down an all in with 54248 board with A9 and won vs KQ) so if I had any opportunity to get into a pot with him I would take it.

I was going to raise on the flop or turn but I thought it would have looked too suspicious which is why I waited until the river. So yes it was a bluff-call.

I mean, he was absolutely awful. He made it to 3-handed. He min-raised a pot, I pushed with AJ he called with 10 J and lost. He was overly passive and had awful hand selection.

I was confident he was not going to call, whether that meaning he had a weak hand or he didn’t want to risk all his chips, i just thought he would fold and I was right.

(I won /images/graemlins/smirk.gif)

[/ QUOTE ]

This is necessary information to pose up front for this particular hand, IMO. Otherwise, you won't get the feedback on this hand that you may want in order to improve or even have a meaningful discussion of how you played it.

I like your line *much* better after reading this post.

Yugoslav

[ZebraAss]

I was wrong about the AJ vs J 10 with MMat1, it was some one else and it wasnt 3-way.

2 hands with MMat1 ( Boring hands, dont read if you have other things to do)

400/800 -- Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 3
Seat 1: ZebraAss (2645)
Seat 2: EBJS5 (5310)
Seat 9: MMatl (2045)
MMatl posts small blind (200)
ZebraAss posts big blind (400)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to ZebraAss [ Kc, 6s ]
EBJS5 folds.
MMatl calls (200)
ZebraAss checks.
** Dealing Flop ** : [ Kd, 5s, 2h ]
MMatl bets (500)
ZebraAss raises (1000) to 1000
MMatl folds.
** Summary **
Main Pot: 2300
Board: [ Kd 5s 2h ]
ZebraAss balance 3545, bet 1400, collected 2300, net +900 [ Kc 6s ] [ a pair of kings -- Kc,Kd,6s,5s,2h ]
EBJS5 balance 5310, didn't bet (folded)
MMatl balance 1145, lost 900 (folded)

-- he folds easily.


400/800 Seat 9 is the button
Total number of players : 3
Seat 1: ZebraAss (3545)
Seat 2: EBJS5 (5310)
Seat 9: MMatl (1145)
ZebraAss posts small blind (200)
EBJS5 posts big blind (400)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to ZebraAss [ 8d, 8s ]
MMatl raises (1145) to 1145
MMatl is all-In.
ZebraAss calls (945)
EBJS5: lol
ZebraAss: ?
EBJS5 calls (745)
Creating Main Pot with $3435 with MMatl
** Dealing Flop ** : [ 4h, 5s, 7c ]
ZebraAss checks.
EBJS5 checks.
** Dealing Turn ** : [ Ts ]
ZebraAss checks.
EBJS5 checks.
** Dealing River ** : [ 9d ]
ZebraAss checks.
EBJS5 checks.
** Summary **
Main Pot: 3435 |
Board: [ 4h 5s 7c Ts 9d ]
ZebraAss balance 2400, lost 1145 [ 8d 8s ] [ a pair of eights -- Ts,9d,8d,8s,7c ]
EBJS5 balance 7600, bet 1145, collected 3435, net +2290 [ Th Ac ] [ a pair of tens -- Ac,Th,Ts,9d,7c ]
MMatl balance 0, lost 1145 [ 5h Ks ] [ a pair of fives -- Ks,Ts,9d,5h,5s ]

--2 hands with EBJ


400/800 Table -- Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 2
Seat 1: ZebraAss (2600)
Seat 2: EBJS5 (7400)
EBJS5 posts small blind (200)
ZebraAss posts big blind (400)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to ZebraAss [ Qd, 7s ]
EBJS5 calls (200)
ZebraAss checks.
** Dealing Flop ** : [ 6c, 7h, 8c ]
ZebraAss checks.
EBJS5 bets (400)
ZebraAss raises (2200) to 2200
ZebraAss is all-In.
EBJS5 calls (1800)
** Dealing Turn ** : [ Jc ]
** Dealing River ** : [ 3c ]
Creating Main Pot with $5200 with ZebraAss
** Summary **
Main Pot: 5200 |
Board: [ 6c 7h 8c Jc 3c ]
ZebraAss balance 5200, bet 2600, collected 5200, net +2600 [ Qd 7s ] [ a pair of sevens -- Qd,Jc,8c,7s,7h ]
EBJS5 balance 4800, lost 2600 [ 6h 4h ] [ a pair of sixes -- Jc,8c,7h,6h,6c ]

(yea yea - I know, I didn’t like my play either)

400/800 -- Seat 1 is the button
Total number of players : 2
Seat 1: ZebraAss (5200)
Seat 2: EBJS5 (4800)
ZebraAss posts small blind (200)
EBJS5 posts big blind (400)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to ZebraAss [ Qc, Qs ]
ZebraAss raises (1100) to 1300
EBJS5 raises (4400) to 4800
EBJS5 is all-In.
ZebraAss calls (3500)
Creating Main Pot with $9600 with EBJS5
** Dealing Flop ** : [ Qh, 3d, 9h ]
** Dealing Turn ** : [ Ks ]
** Dealing River ** : [ 2h ]
** Summary **
Main Pot: 9600 |
Board: [ Qh 3d 9h Ks 2h ]
ZebraAss balance 10000, bet 4800, collected 9600, net +4800 [ Qc Qs ] [ three of a kind, queens -- Ks,Qc,Qs,Qh,9h ]
EBJS5 balance 0, lost 4800 [ 4s 5s ] [ high card king -- Ks,Qh,9h,5s,4s ]


...as you can see these guys were pretty loopey.

[ZebraAss]

Thanks for the advice. I will do that next time.

[microbet]

So when you say 'I suck at bluffing' you meant he sucks at bluffing. That's right? I've mentioned before that I have a crappy sarcasm meter.

You raised on the river because you had the best hand, right? Your check on the turn was an attempt to induce a bluff on the river, right? If so, very good, but of course, more risky than just taking the pot on the turn, especially with just a pair of 7's.

[ZebraAss]

Not exactly, I was just implying that I am trying to learn the strategies that you guys have known and applied for several years. Not necessarily this one, but I am trying new things and wanted to know if I should correct anything about this play.

Thanks everyone,

Zebra

[Bigwig]

There are often players I have an excellent read against and am looking to play a pot with. However, I want at least one of two things:
a) position
or
b) a hand I can get fancy with

You don't have either. So I'm outta here preflop.

[microbet]

[ QUOTE ]
I like everything about how you played this hand except the amount of your check-raise on the river. That's not how much somebody with a monster would bet. If I was your opponent, I would have called your check raise with pocket 10's or Jacks, and that's not what you want.

[/ QUOTE ]

After villian bets on the river do you think he has 7s beat, and if so, you think he will fold to a smaller raise? I would think that a raise of 200-300 would look more like a monster, but would still expect most players with better than 7s to look you up with that much in the pot already.

You can't expect a worse hand to call any raise.

If hero thinks he has the best hand, why not just call on the river? To prevent giving up information?

[curtains]

By the way I completely hate this hand. I hate calling preflop. I think it's bad advice to let this slide as being something that's reasonable to do.

[jcm4ccc]

Well, wtf. You knew what you were doing, you know this is a crazy kind of play but you decided to take a shot at it. I'll judge the play on the basis of what you were trying to achieve, not on what everybody says you should have done.

If you were going to bluff, I think I would have check/raised the flop. You cold called the preflop raise. You checked the flop. A raise now would look like you are trying to protect your monster hand against a flush draw.

The problem with letting this thing go to the river, I think, is that the villian has two more cards to make his hand. That makes it that much more likely that he is going to call your bluff.

[microbet]

Right, and as you probably noticed, I said I would have folded preflop.

Seemed like a call some successful super-aggressive players might have made though.

While most of my playing action is devoted to being relatively tight early, stealing blinds in the middle, being wise on the bubble and aggressive in the money, my forum action is mostly devoted to attempting to understand the hearts and minds of our heroes and villians.

[curtains]

I hear ya, I just recall this same handle saying that they just made a $50 deposit a few days ago (Which they have run up quite a bit) and that they are an extremely young player.

That information, combined with this preflop call, leads me to suspect that they are a little too creative for their own good.