Hand Vs a maniac

[Nick709]

CRAZY opponent in this hand, I have over 200 hands on him and he is a 55% VP$IP and a 20% PFR with a total aggression of a little over 2. Other player is somewhat unknown but has played every hand so far and been very passive. Comments on all streets appreciated. Anyone think about check raising the turn or river?
Party Poker 3/6 Omaha/8 (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG :#A500AF(clueless)/ calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 :#A500AF(maniac)/ raises</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, UTG :#A500AF(clueless)/ calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 :#A500AF(maniac)/ caps</font>, Hero calls, UTG :#A500AF(clueless)/ calls.

Flop: (12.33 SB) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, clueless checks, <font color="#CC3333">maniac bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, clueless calls, <font color="#CC3333">maniac 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero caps</font>, clueless calls, maniac calls.

Turn: (12.16 BB) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, clueless checks, <font color="#CC3333">maniac bets</font>, Hero calls, clueless calls.

River: (15.16 BB) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, clueless checks, <font color="#CC3333">maniac bets</font>, Hero calls, clueless folds.

Final Pot: 17.16 BB

[MKR]

Preflop: Even if he is a mainiac why do you like your hand well enough to reraise?

Flop: Looks like it missed you. You have a pair of kings, a draw to the second nut low and a draw to a runner runner nut flush. What is it about your hand now that makes you like it enough to get into a raising war?

Turn and River: Check raise? I don't think so, unless you believe it will make both of them lay down their hands. Since there is so much money in the pot and you think maniac can have anything at all calling seems okay. But what about clueless? What do you put him on at the turn?

I am have a great deal of difficulty with O/8 and in responding through your post am thinking "aloud" rather than claiming a deep understanding of the game.


MKR

[gergery]

Preflop: I’d have just called rather than 3-betting, but 3-betting is not bad. Your hand plays well with few opponents. Mainly, in the BB you are out of position, and while your hand is reasonable, there are still a fair number of hands that are close to or better than yours.
Flop: I’d have just called. You have top pair and 2nd nut low draw. So with marginal two way holdings normally I’d say raise, except that here you 1) put so much money in preflop that its unlikely they’ll fold, and 2) vs. call stn you want to value bet more and semi-bluff less, and vs. maniac you want to call more and bet less.
Turn/River: check-call. With an Aggr rating of only 2, he is not a total maniacal moron – and he’d have to be to keep raising after getting check-raised twice. There are still many hands ahead of yours here.
I’ll guess he showed you either AAxx, or AK2, A22. Maybe A23 or weaker K if you won. But basically I think the strategy you want vs. maniacs is wait for stronger hands before going to war out of position.
--greg

[Moneyline]

Preflop: I would rather call with this hand from the big blind under these conditions. From your description, it seems UTG is unlikely to drop if you 3-bet. I would rather keep the pot smaller preflop. This way a flop check/raise is more likely to work if you want to drive people out on the flop. I think you have a good hand, but not necessarily one you want to get more money in the pot with early. If the 4 was a 2 then I think a preflop raise becomes a better option.

Flop: I like the check/raise. Normally, I think betting out would be better, but with the maniac likely to bet behind you I think you made a good play. However, I think you really need to slow down once UTG calls and especially once the maniac 3-bets. It's very possible you are behind or drawing to the same low as one of the other players, and even if your pair is best for high now it is a very fragile holding that is likely to be outdrawn.

Turn: I'd probably call because the pot is big, but I wouldn't be happy about it. You made the pot so big by jamming on the earlier streets that I think you have to make an uncomfortable call. If you had kept the pot smaller earlier, it would be easier to get away from the hand.

River: I would check/call and hope both opponents were on busted low draws. Again, the size of the pot would be a deciding factor for me.

[Moneyline]

I'm still learning 08 too, but in my opinion play becomes MUCH different shorthanded than it does at a full table. So while this particular hand doesn't have any strong nut possibilities (which I think you want to normally look for in a ring game- especially from EP and MP), it has strong scoop potential against a small field because it has a) a decent low draw b)nut flush potential c) nut straight potential d) high cards that might make a winning 2 pair against a small field. That said, I think the hand would be much better if the T was a Q or J... Or if the 4 was a 3 or 2.

[Nick709]

The reason I thought about CRing the turn or river was to fold a weak two pair from clueless, I felt if I hit my low it would be good or tied and I would be ahead of maniac about half the time. I put clueless on some sort of low draw or maybe a weak two pair which I would hope he would fold on the river unimproved, the only time I saw this player raise postflop he showed down a set so I ruled that out. The reason for the threebet preflop was to get clueless out, my hand plays fairly well heads up. I beleive in dealing with an O8 maniac requires seemingly maniacal play in response. I could be wrong. I would love to hear more responses from people.

[Nick709]

Hi moneyline, I agree with your line, it was reckless to cap the flop. The turn call did seem somewhat uncomfortable but the river call was just automatic for me. I appreciate the comments. I will post results if anyone is interested.

[Moneyline]

[ QUOTE ]
I will post results if anyone is interested.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am.

[Nick709]

And thoughts, maniac showed A47J and MHIG. I think I went a little overboard on the flop and preflop when all I could think about was how to get clueless out, I had never seen how he has reacted to a double raise preflop. I think I should have been more worried about him.

[Buzz]

Nick - You had a bit of bad luck here. Against the two opponents you have described, I like your starting hand, I like your fit with the flop - and I like your idea of getting heads-up with the maniac.

But your attempts to get heads-up didn't work and things went downhill for you, with no help on the turn or river. Sometimes you make a nice play and things just don't work out.

[ QUOTE ]
I beleive in dealing with an O8 maniac requires seemingly maniacal play in response.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think you help yourself if you sink to the level of the maniac.

What you're doing when you make it three bets before the flop is like mud wrestling with a sheep and a pig. The sheep doesn't understand what's going on, the pig likes it and you get all dirty.

I think you have a better chance of getting heads-up against the maniac if just confront Clueless with a double bet once - on the flop. You check the flop, Clueless checks, Maniac bets - and then you make it two bets. If that doesn't work, I don't think capping will either.

Once somebody limps before the flop, they'll almost always call however many raises there are - and then if they have contributed additional monies before the flop, they're often tougher to get rid of after the flop - good players because of the size of the pot, and bad players because they have more invested in the pot.

Just my opinion.

Buzz