Jim Kleronomos article

[Victor]

If you put him on AK why dont your 3bet the flop?

[2ndGoat]

And can we even assume that a player that is playing poorly is going to go through the trouble of waiting to raise on the turn with an overpair? Furthermore, if he's not that bad, is he going to sit on QQ/JJ til the turn, knowing that overcards lie in wait?

2nd

[kleraudio]

Hey guys, Jim Kleronomos here, I will start with Victor first:

Victor: "If you put him on AK why dont [you] 3bet the flop?"

Answer: The reason I did not three-bet this flop was because I still was not 100% sure that he held AK. An overpair was still a small possibility, I wanted to see what would happen on the turn. After the Q hit on the turn, I decided I had to bet here to eliminate him from drawing for free if he indeed did have the AK, if he had an overpair to this board, he would have again raised me on fourth street, since he just called my bet on fourth street I was quite sure now he had AK and what I needed to worry about was milking one more big bet from him on the river if his straight or A or K did not hit. I checked the river to him, hoping to induce a bluff, which is what happened and i got one more bet out of him. Hope that answers your question.

2ndGoat: "And can we even assume that a player that is playing poorly is going to go through the trouble of waiting to raise on the turn with an overpair? Furthermore, if he's not that bad, is he going to sit on QQ/JJ til the turn, knowing that overcards lie in wait?"

Answer: Your first question is yes, this particular player would wait for the turn to raise with his overpair about 90% of the time. It is feasible, however, for him to have raised me on the flop with an overpair, which is why I didnt three-bet in the first place. Remember, these reads are player dependent. For your second question, the answer is the same, this particular opponent would wait until the turn to raise w/ his overpair most of the time.

I hope I have been able to clearly answer your questions, It is very late and I apologize for any grammatical errors. please feel free to reply to this post with any other questions.

Jim Kleronomos /images/graemlins/spade.gif

[Victor]

So what was your plan if your opponent raised the turn?

[kleraudio]

[ QUOTE ]
So what was your plan if your opponent raised the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey Victor, this is a copy and paste of my first response to you.

"After the Q hit on the turn, I decided I had to bet here to eliminate him from drawing for free if he indeed did have the AK, if he had an overpair to this board, he would have again raised me on fourth street"

If he had raised me on the turn, i would have been convinced I was beat and folded.

Hope that helped.

Jim Kleronomos

[TheHip41]

[ QUOTE ]
While playing online limit hold 'em, an interesting hand came up that I would like to share. The table was particularly passive before the flop which allowed me to play many more hands and take advantage of weaker players. I was in the third position and was dealt the


JT

[/ QUOTE ]

Anyone else think this is the worst open limp in history?

[Victor]

I think table conditions would need to be pristine to show profit with this hand in this position.

[The Dude]

The open-limp is really, really bad, yes.

[kleraudio]

This table was very very passive, if I flopped a decent hand I would be paid off. Do you believe open raising was a better play? Folding here at this table with these players was not an option. I looked at my options, raise or limp, I chose to see the flop cheaply and grab a couple other opponents in case I flopped a hand. If not, I get away cheaply. I understand your argument of it being a bad open limp, but all my actions are dependent on the situations at the table.

Jim Kleronomos

[TheHip41]

If the table is passive, why would you ever open limp from that position? I mean, if your hand is 'good' enough to play, then you should be raising. You want hands like AT, or A4, or KJ out of your way. Limping just gets you into trouble.

On a side note, I don't think it's ever +EV to limp unsuited connectors, esp JT and down from MP1.

If you have QJ or KQ or AK, then raise, if you have JT or T9 or that, just fold, next hand.

[The Dude]

[ QUOTE ]
Folding here at this table with these players was not an option.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes it was.

[pfkaok]

[ QUOTE ]

Quote:
Folding here at this table with these players was not an option.


Yes it was.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, i can't see playing this hand being right here... how many hands are you playing in this spot in this type of game, 50%?

[TheHip41]

In all honesty, JTo is a greatly overrated hand. I think JTs is good, with limpers in front of you, but even open limping that isn't that great of a play.

What hands would you limp from MP1.

JTo
QTo
KTo
KJo
K9o
Q8o

To me, all these hands fall in the same trash category. I used to think KJo was a sweet hand, until I looked in my PT database after 50,000 hands and I had lost $2 with it.

Out of all those hands, I'd muck all but KJo instantly from your position. If the tables was ripe for it, I might open raise with KJo, that's about it though.

Just my thoughts

[jedi]

Did I miss the part where hero put pre-flop raising villian on AA, KK, QQ, or JJ at all? Why weren't these hands a possiblity?

[TheHip41]

[ QUOTE ]
Did I miss the part where hero put pre-flop raising villian on AA, KK, QQ, or JJ at all? Why weren't these hands a possiblity?


[/ QUOTE ]


In the article, he discusses why the villian "wouldn't" have AA, KK, QQ, or JJ.

On a Jxx board, he's saying the villian would "wait for the turn" to get in a more expensive raise. So by him raise the flop of Jxx, he wouldn't have AA, or KK, or QQ. Granted, if he had JJ, he would probably not raise.

But by this guys logic, the fact he raised means he has A high, and not KK.

I don't get it. If someone bets into me on a Jxx board, heads up, and I have KK, I'm raising more often than not. I just let them call down. I obviously wasn't the villian in this hand.


This article reminds me of the opposite man article. The author states that the villain would raise the flop with AK(worse hand), but not riase with the best hand *(aa, kk, qq, jj)

Very interesting. I guess this is why I usually just raise, because he's going to call down with his J-trash anyway.