Damn you, level 3

[bones]

Fairly common general scenario:

Level 3, anywhere from 22s to 55s. Stack ~650. 6-8 players left. You're dealt AJo in UTG+2.

Action?

[mcpherzen]

Fold

[voltron87b]

Raise to 3 BB. Or limp if you really dislike folding. Folding is a bad play, and should only be done if you truly have no postflop skill when less than 9 handed.

[curtains]

It makes a big difference to me if there are 6 players left as opposed to 8.....being on cutoff and 3 off button is huge difference.

[bones]

We'll go with 7.

[curtains]

I'll raise, probably to 125-150. Although this is basically a carbon copy of an earlier thread where I was blasted by some people for suggesting to play AJo here. (And that thread the hero was in the cutoff and not 2 off button).

[bones]

I originally wrote this thinking that a push would steal a great % of the time, but almost never get called by a worse hand. As I read the responses, I got QQ after a couple of limpers. I pushed and got called by A5 (about 700 in each stack).

I'm not sure that changes my opinion of the correct play (I folded AJ, btw), but it certainly gives something else to consider.

[curtains]

It'll definitely get called by worse hands if you just push. You can never discount the PartyPoker giant idiot factor.

[bones]

[ QUOTE ]
(I folded AJ, btw),

[/ QUOTE ]

err..limped. Folded to bet by SB on K high board.

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]
Fold

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice, I like this line.

Yugoslav

[mcpherzen]

[ QUOTE ]
Raise to 3 BB. Or limp if you really dislike folding. Folding is a bad play, and should only be done if you truly have no postflop skill when less than 9 handed.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can have all the post-flop skill in the world and you will still be putting yourself in a pretty bad position if you raise or limp with this hand and get called by anyone. The problem is you don't have enough chips to "play poker" post-flop at this level. Say you raise to $150 and get called by only the BB. That puts $325 in the pot and you have $500 left. If you miss on the flop and he stop-and-go's you, you can't call. If the flop is A-high and he bets the pot at you, are you ahead? If he checks the flop and you bet another $150, and then he check-raises you all-in, do you know where you are, even if the flop is J-high?

Without a premium hand (AA, KK, QQ (kinda), AK, or AQ (kinda)), you're pretty much in jail here. With only 13 big blinds left in your stack, a non-premium hand's best play is the push here, hoping to steal the blinds but with some decent high-card value if it does get called. There just aren't enough chips to play post-flop. However, I personally believe it is too early to be doing too much pushing here with only $75 in blinds out there to be won. IMO, you'd be much better off mucking this and waiting for a better opportunity when the blinds go to $50/$100. Notice I did NOT say wait for a better hand...a better opportunity might be a level 4 hand folded to you in the cutoff and you push with 6BB and any 2 cards. And, of course, by being patient here and folding, you buy yourself a couple more hands to actually wake up with a premium hand that you can try to get paid.

--mcpherzen

[Cheeseweasel]

Pushing is an EV+ play.

[zaphod]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Raise to 3 BB. Or limp if you really dislike folding. Folding is a bad play, and should only be done if you truly have no postflop skill when less than 9 handed.

[/ QUOTE ]


You can have all the post-flop skill in the world and you will still be putting yourself in a pretty bad position if you raise or limp with this hand and get called by anyone. The problem is you don't have enough chips to "play poker" post-flop at this level. Say you raise to $150 and get called by only the BB. That puts $325 in the pot and you have $500 left. If you miss on the flop and he stop-and-go's you, you can't call. If the flop is A-high and he bets the pot at you, are you ahead? If he checks the flop and you bet another $150, and then he check-raises you all-in, do you know where you are, even if the flop is J-high?

Without a premium hand (AA, KK, QQ (kinda), AK, or AQ (kinda)), you're pretty much in jail here. With only 13 big blinds left in your stack, a non-premium hand's best play is the push here, hoping to steal the blinds but with some decent high-card value if it does get called. There just aren't enough chips to play post-flop. However, I personally believe it is too early to be doing too much pushing here with only $75 in blinds out there to be won. IMO, you'd be much better off mucking this and waiting for a better opportunity when the blinds go to $50/$100. Notice I did NOT say wait for a better hand...a better opportunity might be a level 4 hand folded to you in the cutoff and you push with 6BB and any 2 cards. And, of course, by being patient here and folding, you buy yourself a couple more hands to actually wake up with a premium hand that you can try to get paid.

--mcpherzen

[/ QUOTE ]


I agree with you 100%. Having sligthly above 10 BB is tricky. My standard raise at this level has been 175, but that leaves you with all those problems mentioned here on the flop. So i have been starting to question wheter pushing is a better move.Another problem is when somebody reraises you all in preflop. I would mostly fold, but i would feel bad about it.

About the same problems occur when you have 1100-1300 chips at level 4 with blinds at 50-100, raising to 300 or so leaves hard descisons on the flop.

[rachelwxm]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Raise to 3 BB. Or limp if you really dislike folding. Folding is a bad play, and should only be done if you truly have no postflop skill when less than 9 handed.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can have all the post-flop skill in the world and you will still be putting yourself in a pretty bad position if you raise or limp with this hand and get called by anyone. The problem is you don't have enough chips to "play poker" post-flop at this level. Say you raise to $150 and get called by only the BB. That puts $325 in the pot and you have $500 left. If you miss on the flop and he stop-and-go's you, you can't call. If the flop is A-high and he bets the pot at you, are you ahead? If he checks the flop and you bet another $150, and then he check-raises you all-in, do you know where you are, even if the flop is J-high?

Without a premium hand (AA, KK, QQ (kinda), AK, or AQ (kinda)), you're pretty much in jail here. With only 13 big blinds left in your stack, a non-premium hand's best play is the push here, hoping to steal the blinds but with some decent high-card value if it does get called. There just aren't enough chips to play post-flop. However, I personally believe it is too early to be doing too much pushing here with only $75 in blinds out there to be won. IMO, you'd be much better off mucking this and waiting for a better opportunity when the blinds go to $50/$100. Notice I did NOT say wait for a better hand...a better opportunity might be a level 4 hand folded to you in the cutoff and you push with 6BB and any 2 cards. And, of course, by being patient here and folding, you buy yourself a couple more hands to actually wake up with a premium hand that you can try to get paid.

--mcpherzen

[/ QUOTE ]

very nice. Although I don't mind limp especially people might afraid of limp monsters at this stage. As to the OP, you should read the popular thread recently. I think 6 or 8 people creates a huge difference here.