ATo SB defense -- good or sloppy?

[PotatoStew]

Party 2/4, 9 handed. Second hand at the table, no reads. I'm in the SB with ATo.

Preflop: Folded to CO, who raises. Button folds. I call, BB calls.

Flop: 624 rainbow

I check, BB checks. CO bets, I raise. BB folds, CO 3-bets, I call.

Turn: 3

I check, CO bets. There's now about $28 in the pot. I figure I have four outs to a 5 (which I now realize only splits the pot -- didn't catch that during the hand, but I'm not sure it matters in this instance), 3 outs to pair my Ace, which I think may be good, and I'll give myself 1 out for pairing my Ten (3 chances to do it, but there's a good possibility it may not be good). That's about 8 outs -- roughly 5 to 1, and I'm getting about 7 to 1 on the pot, so I call.

River: A

I bet, CO calls.

Feedback on all streets is appreciated.

[mr pink]

i think you need to 3-bet out of the small blind here.

[QTip]

I'm just learning about blind stealing and defense, but this is the first thing I thought as well. I've been incorporating some of the things I've read, and I've even had the CO fold PF to my 3 bet with a hand like this.

[Fat Nicky]

[ QUOTE ]
i think you need to 3-bet out of the small blind here.

[/ QUOTE ]

yea, if i'm gonna defend my blinds in these games, i think 3-betting is better than calling.

[lil']

I noticed you're check-raising the flop with ace high. You'll have a lot more success with ace high against one player rather than two. Three bet pre-flop and lead the flop.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
i think you need to 3-bet out of the small blind here.

[/ QUOTE ]

[J.R.]

me too, cause its the right thing to do.

[QTip]

[ QUOTE ]
That's about 8 outs -- roughly 5 to 1, and I'm getting about 7 to 1 on the pot, so I call.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that's way too generous...I'm not liking this postflop, but I would wait to hear from some more experienced players in blind defense.

[QTip]

I think that's a concensus...thoughts on postflop action and how you would handle a flop raise (assuming you 3bet PF and the BB folds and the CO calls (or caps and how that changes your thoughts).

Thanks.

[QTip]

I get uncomfortable in these situations because I'm not sure how to handle getting raised with a crap board.

[tetonpete]

preflop, i'd 3 bet or fold, depending on reads, which i realize you don't have here. you're out of position and could easily be dominated here. I think calling is the worst option. I doubt those three 10 outs are good; if they are, your A outs probably aren't. The 3 bet after a checkraise would be sounding alarms. I'd check/fold the turn. I think you've got 2 outs for the fives (is this the correct way to calculate this, since your draw only splits?), and 3 outs for either the A or 10. I doubt they're both good, though 77-99 is possible. On the other hand, so is 66-22. So maybe 4 outs here for 6 total. Another problem is that you are out of position and don't know if you need a 10 or an A. Your opponent can check/fold the A if it hurts him or bet/raise it if it hurts you. If he has KK, you won't be happy when you bet the 10 if it comes. i think your poor position here really hurts you chances of continuing profitably.

[lil']

thoughts on postflop action and how you would handle a flop raise

It depends on several factors. Did the CO cap preflop? Did the BB call along after you three bet? Aggression on the flop after a cap or with a extra opponent in the hand indicates more strength.

If you three bet to get heads up and he just calls preflop, you would probably call a flop raise and see what the turn brings.

[sthief09]

first of all, not reading the board correctly DOES matter, a lot. your counting is skewed too. you can't give yourself 4 full outs to a gut shot, even if it's good, because there's a chance he has a 7 or AK or AQ. you say your A "might" be good, but you still give it 3 outs. that's not ok either

[PotatoStew]

Thanks for the replies everyone... I'm going to reply to everything in this one post, just for efficiencies sake...

lil' said: [ QUOTE ]
I noticed you're check-raising the flop with ace high. You'll have a lot more success with ace high against one player rather than two. Three bet pre-flop and lead the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was trying to get it to one player by check-raising the flop -- I figured CO would lead the betting and a raise might get the BB to fold. But the general concensus does seem to be that it's best to 3-bet pre-flop. I assume that one of the reasons for this is to try to get it heads up?

tetonpete said: [ QUOTE ]
If he has KK, you won't be happy when you bet the 10 if it comes. i think your poor position here really hurts you chances of continuing profitably.

[/ QUOTE ]

If my 10 came, I think I'd just check/call. As for poor position, you're almost always going to have poor position when defending your blinds, right? I'm not sure how to factor this in, because if you give too much weight to this consideration, it would seem like you should rarely be defending your blinds.

sthief09 said: [ QUOTE ]
first of all, not reading the board correctly DOES matter, a lot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, generally I realize that this is very true. I didn't think that my neglect of the split mattered in this case because I didn't realize that it affected the count of my outs. Since tetonpete pointed out that the split in fact halves my outs for that draw, I realize now that my misread was actually important here.

[ QUOTE ]
you can't give yourself 4 full outs to a gut shot, even if it's good, because there's a chance he has a 7 or AK or AQ

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand about the possibility of a 7 ruining this draw, but why would it matter if he had AK or AQ? If a 5 hits on the river, we're both playing the board if he doesn't have a 7, right?

How many outs should I count the fives as if I want to take the possibility of a 7 into consideration?

[ QUOTE ]
you say your A "might" be good, but you still give it 3 outs. that's not ok either

[/ QUOTE ]

Point taken. How many outs should the A count for?

So it sounds like preflop I needed to 3-bet, and postflop I needed to count my outs more accurately, and should have folded the turn.