Going Pro - Any Advice?

[PokerAce]

I've turned in my 2-weeks notice at my fulltime job and I will be playing poker for a living starting on March 11. I don't need anyone trying to convince me not to do this, as I've already gone through that process.

What I'm looking for is advice from those who already made the jump. Anything you can think of, I'd like to hear it.

I'm currently at the $3/6 limit. I 6-table with a BB/100 around 2 or so. I have a bankroll of over 700 BB with a nice rakeback deal set up. I've come up with a schedule I'm going to follow. I'll play a 2-3 hour session in the late morning/early afternoon, and a 3-5 hour session after 9 or 10 at night, for a minimum of 5 days a week. This should give me approximately 9000-13000 hands per week. I'll also be moving up in limits as soon as I get a little more money saved up.

For you naysayers, yes, I know this is risky. However, it will be easy for me to find a new job in my field if this falls through.

You can read more about it in my blog, which is linked in my profile.

[johnnybeef]

good luck

[mantasm]

I'd recommend developing a system for paying yourself. I like to top off my checking account every week to a certain level, regardless of how I did at the tables that week. This helps me not care about results very much. 700BB seems a little thin to be living off of, too, so I'd work on building that, but you're probably doing that anyway.

[STLantny]

I just turned. Not that my 20k a year college job was too terribly hard to leave. But just play a lot, is about all i can think of. You obv know what you are doing. make sure you get your hours in, win or lose. And dont let hte winning or the losing affect how much you play, at all, ever. Work on playing the best you can, for as long as you can, and detatch yourself from the winning and hte losing.

[beachbum]

After leaving a nice cushy "9 to 5" engineering job to become a daytrader a few years ago, the adjustment was VERY difficult. I went from having zero stress, lots of friends, active in sports leagues, socially drinking 3 days a week, financial security, etc. to the complete opposite. At first trading for a living was great, but as my life became completely unbalanced as I became solely focused on survival and life became miserable.

IMO, the main thing is focus on keeping your life well-balanced. Force yourself you hang out with your friends, keep dating, work out regularly, etc. Basically have other areas of your life that are outlets for you and things you're good at too. Manage your money well, but don't stop spending all together. If you do, you'll always tell yourself you can't afford to go to happy hour with your buddies or afford an occasional vacation (which is also a necessity).

Have a well-disciplined plan, and good luck (although you don't need it).


Chris

[goofball]

move up.

[PokerAce]

Thanks for the quick replies! The good luck wishes are great, but I would like for you to wish bad or average luck on my opponents. I depend more on math than luck when I play /images/graemlins/smile.gif

While I don't have much saved in an emergency fund at the moment, every extra penny for the next two months will go towards savings. I'm going to attempt to play at least 60k hand a month for the first two months. By that time, I should have several months worth of living expenses saved and a healthy bankroll for $5/10. I think it's safer to play a limit I know I can beat for a good amount until my savings become a little more significant.

One thing I pride myself in is that I'm good with managing money. I will not take stupid risks and put me and my wife in a bad situation. As explained in my blog, I see this as a calculated decision with minimal risk. Worse case scenerio is that I need to find a new job.

I'm going to pay myself by taking out a fixed amount each week, regardless of how I did that week. I'm going to try to keep my bankroll at a certain level, placing any extra into savings, and not worry about building it until I'm about ready to move up. I'd like to maintain a 1k BB bankroll in addition to my savings.

I'm pretty good about playing through downswings. I know that if I put in the hands, the money will follow.

If anything, this move is going to make my non-work life exponentially better. After work and my daily poker, I'm left with 3 hours to spend time with my wife and do whatever. I also suffer from lack of sleep, which I plan on remedying with 8-9 hours of sleep per night when I go pro. It will be nice to have 7-8 hours every day to spend doing whatever I want. My wife just joined Bally's, perhaps I'll join too. This cushy desk job has made me grow a bit of a belly.

[cyorg]

Good luck. Keep us posted.

[beachbum]

Sorry, I didn't go to your blog and see you were married. Ignore what I said before, DON'T keep dating. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[shadow29]

What was your old job?

[PokerAce]

Yeah, my wife would DEFINITELY not like that one bit. That's okay though, I'm extremely happy and in love with her.

[PokerAce]

I've been a software developer for the past 6 years. I've completely lost all the ambition and desire to further my knowledge in the field that I had when I was younger.

By all means, it's a good job. The pay is decent, but I'm tired of it. Life is too short to put in 40 years doing something you hate, or even dislike. I'd rather play poker for a while, save up a large amount of money, and then use that to fund whatever the future holds for me.

[ckessel]

Interesting, I'm in the same boat. Well, I actually really like software development when it's done right. Got my masters in software engineering. Sadly, so few places do it right.

I've pondered playing poker for a living, but like I mentioned in a different thread, it's just not feasible to come close to my current salary at it. And I'm months away from the skill level I'd need to get to 3BB/100. It'd be great to be home for these last 5-6 years and be with my kids before they're grown and gone. On the other hand, it'd suck to be broke /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[PokerAce]

I might enjoy it more if I worked somewhere where it was done right, and in my favorite language. I currently work with PowerBuilder, but I'm more comfortable with C++. At any rate, I used to love working on my own projects, but I haven't touched any of my own stuff in almost a year. Maybe that will pick back up when I have more time, or maybe not.

The interesting thing is that with 45k hands a month, winning at 1.5 BB/100, I'll be making as much as I do as a developer. Knowing that I will soon be moving up in limits, with hopes to hit $15/30 by the end of the year, makes this an exciting opportunity.

[ QUOTE ]
It'd be great to be home for these last 5-6 years and be with my kids before they're grown and gone.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is one of the reasons I want to become an established pro soon. My wife and I want to have children, and I want to be able to spend as much time as possible with them.

I'll say it again: Life is too short to spend doing something you don't love.

[MicroBob]

obviously some people do better when they establish a strcit schedule for themselves...others do better when they allow themselves the flexibility to play whenever they want.

I'm in the latter category... I'll play 10-12 hours one day if I feel like it...and then 0 hours the next day if I'm not in the mood. My GF works on weekends...so it works out perfectly for me to play all day on a Saturday when there are a ton of basketball games or something on TV as well.

Onbiously there's a danger of just putting off your hours and not getting in enough play if you go about it this way though.

I would hate having a 'set' schedule like you are establishing ....but I know that it's better for some and not for others.


Keeping good records for tax purposes is an obvious one...but you're probably better organized than me on that front already.


It sounds to me like you have a solid game-plan for this.


FWIW - my away-from-work social life is better in some ways...and worse in others. I have time to play in an adult-soccer league which I've never been able to do before but would have loved to. In my other jobs I was just too busy, too tired, travelling WAY to much, etc.
Now I can pretty much show up to every game and every practice.

I'll be looking to join a racket-club (raquetball and tennis) sometime in the future (I'm not into weights or swimming so I don't belong to a health-club...just depends on your preference).

I do generally miss the social-aspect of working with friends though. I go and visit my old co-workers sometimes and we might go out and drink, etc. But usually our conversations were gossiping about work and bitching about customers/supervisers, etc.

My general social-life could use a bit of improvement but I think I'm more to blame in that department than poker is.


It's up to you to keep your life in balance REGARDLESS of what occupation you have (online-poker pro, day-trader, auto-repair, insurance-sales, pastry-chef, whatever).


And with the lack of commute with online-poker and working whenever you damn well feel like it you shouldn't have too much trouble finding additional time in there to take care of other aspects of your life.


Also - who cares that you're married? I still like the recommendation that you should date around. Tell her that it's for the good of your poker-career.

[PokerAce]

Bob, shame on you. How would your girlfriend feel if you started dating around? My wife would go ape***. It's fortunate that I'm very happy with her /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Following a schedule isn't for everyone. However, it will be the best way for me to get the number of hands in that I will need. I'm a very organized person, and I like a little structure. It also makes things easier for my wife. She'll know the times I need to play and we can plan things around that. I'm sure there will be days where I deviate from this schedule, but for the most part I believe it will work best for me.

I keep very good records of my poker winnings. I'm used to having my taxes withheld from my paychecks, so putting some of my winnings aside for tax purposes will be tough, but I'm sure I'll manage.

BTW, keep posting on your blog. It's one of my daily reads, and congrats on the cruise!

[BradL]

[ QUOTE ]
Keeping good records for tax purposes is an obvious one...but you're probably better organized than me on that front already.

[/ QUOTE ]

Beyond pokertracker what kind of records do you keep and what do you use to keep them?

-Brad

[Prelude008]

Hey P-Ace,

Good luck. I am looking forward to perusing your blog to check your progress. I've been "breaking even", I guess that beats a loss, though. My goal is to find and plug leaks in addition to trying to maintain patience while waiting for the cards turn for the better.

[Justin A]

[ QUOTE ]
he good luck wishes are great, but I would like for you to wish bad or average luck on my opponents. I depend more on math than luck when I play

[/ QUOTE ]

I hate to tell you this, but bad luck for your opponents = good luck for you.

[ QUOTE ]
I'd like to maintain a 1k BB bankroll in addition to my savings.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is an excellent idea. should help a lot emotionally to have a bankroll that can really handle the swings.

[PokerAce]

[ QUOTE ]

Beyond pokertracker what kind of records do you keep and what do you use to keep them?

[/ QUOTE ]

I keep a spreadsheet that tracks my balances in the various poker sites and neteller. I can tell you exactly how much I won at any time of the year. It also keeps track of my neteller withdraws and rakeback payments.

[bisonbison]

I read more about it on your blog:

I was actually below my stop-loss of $250...

You need to do some serious thinking about money if A) you have a stoploss based on money and not a feel for how you're playing and B) that's -42BB. You can hit that in the blink of an eye. And will. While playing well.

Best of luck.

[Greg J]

[ QUOTE ]
Also - who cares that you're married? I still like the recommendation that you should date around. Tell her that it's for the good of your poker-career.

[/ QUOTE ]
Hey Bob,

You think you can talk to my wife for me?

[Peter_rus]

Good luck, pal. After i quit my job in bank in June'2004 after 5-year career, i was never thought i made wrong move. Been full-time online poker player is fun and comfortable. I enjoy my independence and straight "working time to money converting". Hope you'll it enjoy too.

You must have a skill to safely move down in limits if you face downswing that makes your bankroll too short.

Poker is not even near risky if you play well and manage your bankroll good.

[PokerAce]

bison, the stoploss is out the door. I'll be putting in the hands regardless. I started using the stoploss because I wasn't getting many hands (< 500 a day) in and if I started losing big, I would play to 'get lucky,' which we all know doesn't work.

I've since received coaching, which has been a tremendous help and I feel my game is 10 times better now. I'm actually below my stoploss tonight, but I'm playing a good game and making a comeback.

I know that if I play the hands, the money will follow. I'm expecting 100-200 BB downswings on a regular basis. I'm much better prepared to handle them now than I was a month ago.

[TheMetetron]

As I said before, have fun /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I've officially instituted a 1500 BB rule for myself now. I have a risk-averse nature I guess.

[RoundersRocks!]

This has been said, but you can't stress it enough, detach yourself from the money. Don't let yourself talk about poker when you aren't playing. Constantly remind youself it is a only a job. I went pro about 6 months ago, and I have been doing pretty well finacially, but lately I have been losing discipline and letting myself play too long, letting myself get exited about big wins, and sleeping a bit irregularly. I feel like after awhile the poker itself is just a formality, and the hard part is controlling the effects gambling can have on your brain. I'm sure you know all that, and its not that big a deal, but thats the biggest advise I can give.

[Danenania]

It might be a good idea to stop yourself from checking your balance during play. Get your hands in, and don't check on money or stats until the end of each day. You'll play better and be happier.

[Aceshigh7]

This is a very good thread. Good luck to you. I think you will be successful.

[xCEO]

Good luck!! You have a very good plan, so this must work

See you at the 3/6 tables!

[PokerAce]

[ QUOTE ]
It might be a good idea to stop yourself from checking your balance during play. Get your hands in, and don't check on money or stats until the end of each day. You'll play better and be happier.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a very good idea, and I might just do that. Thanks!

I've received several PMs requesting the spreadsheet I use. The spreadsheet I have now is very customized towards my personal needs. I'll actually be making a new one to accommodate some of the changes that will occur when I go pro. Once I finish this spreadsheet, I'll be happy to email it to anyone who's interested.

[Schneids]

If a bad day at poker is better than a good day at work, you'll probably enjoy being a pro and do well with it. If not, the likelihood you'll burn out and become one of those 10-20hr per week pros is high.

[Ray Of Light]

I play poker semi-professional, making half of my income from my online earnings... my advice is set up a seperate bank account for all of your poker earnings, and leave at least half of your bankroll in it (always keep part of your bankroll 'inactive' offline).

Then whenever you draw profit from your online 'active' bankroll, put it into that bank account.

This way, when it comes to pay day, you can take your pay out of the poker bank account (rather than withdrawing money directly from your online account).

This helps you to view your online 'active' bankroll as a completely seperate entity from your rent. A poker players bankroll is sacred.

Also, have more than one poker site to play at regularly. Party is a great site, but increase your game selection, by checking out some other sites, to see if they have some good games going...

Anyway, Good Luck with going all the way pro... I'll be adding your blog to my weekly blog list for sure! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[theRealMacoy]

gentlemen,

great thread, thanks for the info.
good luck pokerace.

cheers,
the real macoy

[PokerAce]

Everyone has given me very good advice. This is exactly the kind of information I was looking for.

Managing my bankroll and savings will be the most important element of my success. I'm going to lay out my plan for bankroll building and paying myself.

Like I mentioned before, I'm going to be saving almost everything for the first two months. Beyond winning what I need to live on for those first two months, I should be able to save two or three month's worth of living expenses on top of that.

After that, I'm going to build my roll up to 1k BB. Anything I win over that will be transfered to my savings on a weekly basis. Rakeback payments will be immediately transfered into savings. If my bankroll is below 1k BB, nothing will be taken out until it builds back up. If my bankroll drops too low, I will replenish it from savings or drop down in limits, depending on why it's dropping too low.

I will pay myself once a week. I will transfer $XX amount of money, which will be a fixed amount regardless of how I'm doing, from my savings into my checking.

When I decide to move up in limits, which I will only do with more than adequate savings, then I will start leaving 50-100% of the week's profits in the bankroll to let it build. Once it hits 1k BB for the next limit, then I will move up.

Unfortunately, this means I'm going to be stuck at the $3/6 level for a while, at least through summer and maybe even longer. I'm not too concerned though. It's a limit I know I can beat, and since this will be my only source of income, it's better to be safe than sorry when it comes to moving up in limits.

Thanks again! I've gotten a lot of good advice, and I hope others have benefited from this thread as well.

[QTip]

Good luck dude! I've been playing semi-pro for 2 months now and so far so good.

[ucfryan]

Good luck man /images/graemlins/smile.gif I'm playing professionally too, although my monthly overhead is probably lower than anyone elses.

[QBALL]

Looks like you've addressed the obvious issues. But I would recommend a backup plan in case broader issues make this a dead end move.

For example, rampant bot play, new government regs clamping down on online play, etc. could have a big impact. Perhaps a bigger risk is that you'll get incredibly bored by the repetitive, isolated, grind needed to crank out enough hands.

I was in a "can't lose" job 5 years ago and watched it unravel as conditions at the macro level wiped out the opportunity. I didn't have a plan B and ended up learning a very expensive lesson.

Best of luck and hope to see you on TV one day...

[dogmeat]

Good Luck to you on your new venture. I'm sure you will do well, but I am always a bit concerned when players decide to "go pro" and then say they will get in lots of hours to put away enough money for emergency uses. This should already be in place.

As for record keeping, I used to log everyting by hand (along with pokertracker), but have started using MS Money this year. I listed every poker account and neteller under MS bank accounts, and each day when I finish a session on a specific site, I enter in the win or loss. This should take care of anything Mr. IRS ever wants, and it also gives me a complete list of all assets. I can run a report for any site, any month etc. The only thing it does not provide is hours.

Dogmeat /images/graemlins/spade.gif

[Sponger15SB]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also - who cares that you're married? I still like the recommendation that you should date around. Tell her that it's for the good of your poker-career.

[/ QUOTE ]
Hey Bob,

You think you can talk to my wife for me?

[/ QUOTE ]

While Bob was talking to your wife you would have plenty of time to sneek off and go on a date.
/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[MicroBob]

yeah....i was thinking something along those lines.


for a short, balding, kinda pudgy guy I can be pretty smoooooth with the ladies.

I don't think you want me talking to your wife.

[PokerAce]

[ QUOTE ]
Good Luck to you on your new venture. I'm sure you will do well, but I am always a bit concerned when players decide to "go pro" and then say they will get in lots of hours to put away enough money for emergency uses. This should already be in place.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, and my original plan was to have a year's worth of living expenses saved. However, with my full time job, I don't have much time to play, and I'm always tired because I stay up too late to get my hands in.

I thought about it, and the conclusion I came to was that if I do this now and fail, I'll always be able get another job. The reason I gave for leaving was that I need to be home to care for my wife, who is still recovering from a coma.

I have enough of a buffer to last for a couple months. If this fails before I have time to save up more, then I'll get another job. If I don't go on a horrendous losing streak, then after the first two months, I'll have enough saved that it should be easy sailing from there... so to speak. I know this won't be easy, but my life will be far more enjoyable. I'm sure of it.

[PokerAce]

I guess I don't have a backup plan if online poker goes south. I don't see it happening in the near future. If it does happen, then I guess I could find another programming job. I'll simply say that I tried to start my own company and failed, which will be true enough.

If it happens when I have enough savings, perhaps I'll move to Vegas.

[PokerAce]

I'm updating this thread to let anyone who was interested in my spreadsheet know that the new one has been complete. If you've sent me a PM, I'll be emailing it to you shortly. If anyone else would like it, send me a PM and I'll forward it to you.

Thanks again everyone for your advice and well wishes. They are much appreciated.

[theRealMacoy]

thanks PokerAce,

the speadsheet is the tits!
kick ass at the tables pokerace.

cheers,
the Real Macoy