suited ace in middle position

[buhler26]

What do you think about the flop raise? Do you continue betting afterwards?

UTG+1 called and then raised all-in for another half-bet after I raised, which is why the action looks funny on the flop.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, Hero calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Button calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (7 SB) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(7 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, Button folds, SB folds, BB folds, UTG calls, UTG+2 calls, Hero calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (8.30 BB) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
UTG checks, UTG+2 checks, Hero checks.

River: (8.30 BB) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
UTG checks, UTG+2 checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 8.30 BB

[mr pink]

what were you trying to accomplish by raising?

[spydog]

I just call the flop and fold the turn unimproved. There are too many callers between you and the flop bettor. If he's on my immediately right then I would raise this flop.

[chief444]

[ QUOTE ]
what were you trying to accomplish by raising?

[/ QUOTE ]
Position, free card? Looks OK to me.

[spydog]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
what were you trying to accomplish by raising?

[/ QUOTE ]
Position, free card? Looks OK to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? Because it's 10SBs when it gets to Hero and there is little chance of being 3-bet?

I think I still like calling this.

[QTip]

Not my favorite thing here either...although, he did buy the button and even a free showdown. To me, it looks like he just scared a Jack with a bad kicker.

[chief444]

[ QUOTE ]
Why? Because it's 10SBs when it gets to Hero and there is little chance of being 3-bet?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah. Plus he has backdoor straight and flush draws to go with bottom pair overcard kicker. And note that this is 1/2 where the free card play probably works more often than we're used to seeing. Should be in the micro forum BTW.

[buhler26]

You're kinda right. I scared off a KJ, a KT, and the all-in guy had KQ. So I ended up in pretty bad shape.

[QTip]

That's the line I like.

[QTip]

I think sometimes we find ourselves in a raise/fold mentality. "If I'm going to play, I'm going to raise". However, there are many times when we should just call...probably this one. I catch myself in this thinking every now and then, and have to calm a little.

What's your AF?

[QTip]

[ QUOTE ]
Should be in the micro forum BTW.

[/ QUOTE ]

Guess so...this is only his 46th post, so he probably isn't aware that this forum is for 2/4 and up.

[buhler26]

Forgive my "newbie"ness. What's AF?

[buhler26]

I realized it, I just forgot, because this is the forum i browse most often. Sorry about that guys.

[QTip]

Your aggression factor...specifically postflop aggression.

[belloc]

I think you have to ask yourself why you're raising here. Is it for value? Probably not. Is it to protect your hand? Probably, but I'm not sure that will usually be effective here. However, in your case it seemed to have folded out several opponents.

Without knowing this, I'd probably call the flop, and if the turn was a 5 or A I'd raise, and if it was a diamond I'd either raise or call depending on where the bet came from.

That said, since your flop raise did well to thin the field, you might consider a turn bet after two checks here. Your hand looks better with that undercard, and a bet might get a hand like QT to fold.

[buhler26]

I know this is blasphemous, but I actually don't have PokerTracker. I will be purchasing soon however.

[QTip]

[ QUOTE ]
you might consider a turn bet after two checks here. Your hand looks better with that undercard, and a bet might get a hand like QT to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is very player dependent. You really need to have a read on your opponent to bet this turn. Being SS without a read, I think your best to take a free card. If you know your up against a type opponent capable of laying down something like QJ, AT, etc, I think a bet has merit. Otherwise, you're just going to get called down more often than not.

[chief444]

It has a free 1000 hand trial, in case you weren't aware. Then you can purchase it (I think it's $55 now) anytime and just plug in the registration code they send you.

[QTip]

sinner

[QTip]

I waited for way too long to make the purchase...get it done.

[belloc]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
you might consider a turn bet after two checks here. Your hand looks better with that undercard, and a bet might get a hand like QT to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is very player dependent.

[/ QUOTE ]

True dat. "You might consider..."

[Fat Nicky]

[ QUOTE ]
you might consider a turn bet after two checks here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think betting the turn kind of kills some of the value of raising on the flop by passing up the chance on a free card.

[chief444]

Yeah, the only reason I didn't mind the flop raise here was because it got the free card.

[lmbree]

I think the line is pretty good. He got a free card, that didn't help. I would bet this river after the turn was checked through against 2 players. Is that a mistake?

[Fat Nicky]

[ QUOTE ]
I would bet this river after the turn was checked through against 2 players. Is that a mistake?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see much value in a bet here, you're better off taking a free showdown.

[QTip]

I'm interested in thoughts on that as well. I think I'm just checking through, though. Worse hands are folding and better hands are probably calling...not much value in betting I don't think.

[lmbree]

You are right. I don't think there is value in betting the river, but I am sure I would do it. Now I need to ask myself, why? I think I'm allergic to checking down 2 streets when I have the button (a leak I'm sure).

[QTip]

I used to be the same way...I think I'm starting to develop more discretion, especially valuable on these larger streets.

[Fat Nicky]

[ QUOTE ]
I think I'm allergic to checking down 2 streets when I have the button (a leak I'm sure).


[/ QUOTE ]

There is nothing to be ashamed of in checked down 2nd to bottom pair 2 streets in a row. Be grateful you got to showdown for free.

[chief444]

[ QUOTE ]
I would bet this river after the turn was checked through against 2 players. Is that a mistake?

[/ QUOTE ]
It would make me wish I bet the turn, but not make me bet the river. I don't think you're ahead 50% of the time you get called.

[lmbree]

I agree with you guys. I need to stop doing this. And yes, I would really wish I bet the turn. I always feel a little on edge about taking my free card or pushing the turn unimproved on my draws. I really need to work on this part of my game.

[QTip]

It might help to reread the riverplay section of SSHE. Betting a marginal hand here would be good, but a poor hand..there's not much to bet about.

[aas]

I think raising and calling are both +EV. In this situation, since you don't really need to clear your A outs (you'll have two pair), I would call.

Raising is still ok, for the reasons already stated by others: Free card, buying the button.

[belloc]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, the only reason I didn't mind the flop raise here was because it got the free card.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here are the two reasons I bet this turn instead of taking the free card:

1. The turn card is an undercard to our pair. Sure, we only have bottom pair, but a turn bet might convince QT or similar that we really have that J. Or it might convince a passive 66-99 that we have the T or J. If that turn is anything bigger than our 5, I most certainly take the free card.

2. If we check the turn, one or the other player will bet the river a good percentage of the time (read-dependent of course). I think I'd rather see the showdown for one bet than to chance not seeing it, especially (from #1) if we can see it against one opponent instead of two.

Is the concern that our pair is small? If so, what if you have AT and you're faced with the same turn decision. Do you bet that?

What if we're faced with the same action up to the turn and the board is 5 6 J and we still have A5? Take the free card? What if we have A6 instead? What is your threshold hand for not taking the free card here and why (all other things being equal)?

[QTip]

[ QUOTE ]
Is the concern that our pair is small? If so, what if you have AT and you're faced with the same turn decision. Do you bet that?

[/ QUOTE ]

There's a huge difference here between bottom pair and middle pair on this board. I put one in a poor hand category and one in a marginal hand category. Yes, I bet that turn.

[chief444]

If I called the flop and the turn checked to me I would bet. I just don't like the flop raise if you plan to bet the turn. I would both raise the flop and bet the turn with AT. I may bet the river as well depending on the opponents.