Changes in the 6-max game at Party [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

sourbeaver

03-01-2005, 09:29 AM

I'm at work so I can't go too long on this.

Small PPs will be that much better to limp with (implied odds just doubled), same can be said for suited connectors in late position (even 1-gapers, 2-gapers).

I think it's also important to try and get the players to commit preflop with our big pairs, we can't afford to make a smallish raise and let them reap the implied odds on our back.

thatpfunk

03-01-2005, 09:31 AM

fix your location

sourbeaver

03-01-2005, 09:41 AM

Not a religious man uh

thatpfunk

03-01-2005, 09:42 AM

i dont care what it says, but the dashes screw up the thread for everyone else.

sourbeaver

03-01-2005, 09:46 AM

Seriously ? Nothing weird here, perhaps we're not using the same resolution.
Had no idea this could cause troubles for some.

djoyce003

03-01-2005, 10:50 AM

I think the blind structure definitely changes how to play the game, but I think it will be important to see how the fishies react as well. For instance, at the old 50 NL tables, will a raise to $4 with AA still get called like it used to...or should you lower your raising standards to $2. I think you limp a lot more with speculative hands since your stacks are now twice as deep, and see if you can still get the big raises called by the fishies. Due to the small sizes of many of the starting pots, play after the flop will be way way way more important. Don't go broke in an unraised pot, etc etc.

warlockjd

03-01-2005, 10:59 AM

1. Maniac chasing becomes more profitable (assuming they buy in full.)

2. IMO posiition becomes even more powerful.

3. Obviously PP go up in value.

4. You will be able to play SC to a raise in position much more often bcz of stack sizes

Much more I'm sure

sourbeaver

03-01-2005, 11:14 AM

[ QUOTE ]
should you lower your raising standards to $2.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you realize the incredible odds you are giving everyone at the table to bust you ?

Aye aye, you should be looking for reasons to raise you big pairs more preflop, not less.

thatpfunk

03-01-2005, 11:18 AM

[ QUOTE ]
2. IMO posiition becomes even more powerful.

[/ QUOTE ]

Strongly agree + those who ignore it will find it much more difficult.

jhall23

03-01-2005, 11:26 AM

I have never played 6max with this stacks before, I am so looking forward to it. Wow wow wow. Party players with 100bb stacks.

I always felt better using the 4xbb + 1 per limper open at UB better as you can open up your raises from LP and not have to commit so much of your stack on a continuation bet. And there is so much room for manuvering post flop.

thatpfunk

03-01-2005, 11:28 AM

Also, manipulation of the pot size depending on your holdings now becomes more important while before hand there was little/none.

schwza

03-01-2005, 11:41 AM

i haven't seen the new changes. so is the biggest game now 2/4 $400? do they still have a $25? is the default when you buy in still to buy in for the max? are most people buying in for the max?

this may rekindle my love of party 6max NL.

Raiser

03-01-2005, 11:42 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
should you lower your raising standards to $2.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you realize the incredible odds you are giving everyone at the table to bust you ?

Aye aye, you should be looking for reasons to raise you big pairs more preflop, not less.

[/ QUOTE ]

Most Party players suck and won't notice betting patters

BUT, isn't raising more with premium pocket pairs than you would raise T9s just telling people what you have? I think the correct adjustment isn't to raise more with AA-QQ. It is to play them differently post flop. I know I'll be much less likely to get all in almost every time with AA after the flop with this blind structure.

Just my $0.02

Raiser

03-01-2005, 11:43 AM

There are the following games, all with 100BB max buy ins.

NL25, 50, 100, 200, 400, 600, 1000

sting

03-01-2005, 11:45 AM

I totally agree. One big benefit of deep stacks is getting to see more cards before having to decide whether to commit your entire stack. This is where the good players are going to have a big edge.

schwza

03-01-2005, 11:45 AM

[ QUOTE ]
There are the following games, all with 100BB max buy ins.

NL25, 50, 100, 200, 400, 600, 1000

[/ QUOTE ]

holy crap, that's totally sweet. hopefully the smaller games will get better as the 200 sharks filter up.

jhall23

03-01-2005, 12:01 PM

Since I am working from home today I just couldn't wait too long to give this a go. I am just finishing up a small session.

I asked in the chat "so what do you guys think of the blind structure change?"

Respones "what changes?"
Another "is that why we are 10-25"

This is definetly going to be good in the beginning at the very least. Seem even looser than normal.

Well gotta give it a rest, have a meeting to dial into and lots of work today. Can't wait for tonight. Party was nice to give me one AA hand in my first session.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

BB ($14.25)
Hero ($38.65)
MP ($73.73)
CO ($58.18)
Button ($15.45)
SB ($35.98)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
Hero raises to $1, MP calls $1, CO calls $1, 1 fold, SB raises to $3, 1 fold, Hero raises to $10, MP folds, CO folds, SB calls $7.

Flop: ($22.25) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $15, SB folds.

Final Pot: $37.25

sourbeaver

03-01-2005, 12:35 PM

While I will admit that's how I thought until a few months ago, just go ahead and ask higher limit players if they raise the same with T9s as they do with AA-QQ.

When you're holding a big hand, which you are ready to commit some chips with, you are the one laying odds to your opponents. So if you raise 2$ with a 50 stack when you hold big pairs which you just might end up going to the felt with, you are giving them much more than correct odds to come in and bust you.

Think about it, a small PP will flop a set roughly 1 in 8.5 times. You're giving the small PP 1 in 25 preflop, that's a fantastic edge. Same can be said for suited connectors.

If you don't cut their odds, you're asking to lose big pots and win small ones. If you get the opponent to commit preflop, not only do you wreck their odds, you just might end up with their stack as a result of their commitment with a dominated hand.

I perfectly understand the "Party" value of raising less, which is that players will call with K8, J9, Q7, and will go all-in when they hit top pair, not being able to see what the hell you could have that beats them. That's a great thing. But if the fish is willing to call 3 with K8o, he just might be willing to call 8 .. 10 ..

Example : (remember that I have the tightest image possible, even though players don't observe much .. they can still sense the 15 VPIP, 4 PFR somewhere) So yesterday, 6-max 50NL, I raise AA to 8, get 2 callers. 66 and T4o.
I'm delighted by both calls, especially if they're gonna put any more money in the pot without beating me, which they both did BTW. I ended losing to 66 who rivered a gut-shot straight, my best smile/laugh/happiness of the night (okay, second best, this (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=1828289&page=&view=&s b=5&o=) was the best), but believe me when I say I lost the pot and felt awesome.

sourbeaver

03-01-2005, 12:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]

I know I'll be much less likely to get all in almost every time with AA after the flop with this blind structure.

[/ QUOTE ]

But this is what you want. You want to get all-in with AA. You want to lay odds so bad, that, no matter what, you can push the flop and love the outcome win or lose.

Okay I'm over-generalizing the concept, but the basic idea is there, and very valuable.

Remember : big pairs can win you small pots, or lose big ones. You can also win big ones, but you'll have to make them commit with dominated hands while they are still dominated (i.e. preflop).

greg nice

03-01-2005, 12:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]

But this is what you want. You want to get all-in with AA. You want to lay odds so bad, that, no matter what, you can push the flop and love the outcome win or lose.

[/ QUOTE ]

this was likely the case with 50bb stacks and a decent raise/reraise. however with 100bb stacks, you will have to make a huge preflop raise to lay bad enough odds. no ones gonna call enormous out of character raises.

sourbeaver

03-01-2005, 12:57 PM

Then how do you explain people playing 1000NL, 2000NL making it 200 to go, 300 to go, 400 to go ?

thatpfunk

03-01-2005, 01:02 PM

Sorry sour, you're wrong.

The biggest adjustment made is probably going to have to be abandoning the mentality of going to the felt with big pairs. With big pairs you want to play a small pot (when stacks are 100bb or greater).

Also, the size of the stakes doesn't indicate someone's skill level. There are bad players everywhere.

sourbeaver

03-01-2005, 01:04 PM

Sigh, okay I meant good high-stakes players.

Sorry, I'm not wrong, but I don't mind that you would think so. This is a game of different opinions, after all /images/graemlins/smile.gif

And I will gladly call those new 2$ raises with 22-99 and fatten my BR.

Raiser

03-01-2005, 01:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]
While I will admit that's how I thought until a few months ago, just go ahead and ask higher limit players if they raise the same with T9s as they do with AA-QQ.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey beaver. Thanks for the reply.

I read the mid/high stakes forum quite a bit and I don't get the impression that many of the posters there vary their raise size based on their holdings. I'll definitely take a deeper look now though.

I understand what you are saying about laying the small pocket pairs the right odds, but in order to force them to make a mistake preflop with 100bb stacks, you have to raise to ~10bb or so. I can't imagine this is the best way to win with your monsters. Maybe I'm wrong? I'm sure I'll find out in the coming weeks /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Ghazban

03-01-2005, 01:15 PM

Rather than raising more, you can work on your reads so that you know when to lay down big pairs postflop. Implied odds are only relevant if you pay off. If you are uncomfortable playing big pairs with deep money, you either need to work on your postflop play or raise so much preflop that implied odds are no longer relevant.

schwza

03-01-2005, 01:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Then how do you explain people playing 1000NL, 2000NL making it 200 to go, 300 to go, 400 to go ?

[/ QUOTE ]

is there 2000NL?

also, sorry for hijack, but how many tables do they have at various levels?

man, i can't wait to get home.

steaknshake925

03-01-2005, 01:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The biggest adjustment made is probably going to have to be abandoning the mentality of going to the felt with big pairs.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, with the deeper stacks you'll have to try to play small pots with your big pairs. Sour, the way to kill implied odds for ur opponent's PPs and SCs isn't to raise >10xBB everytime u get a big pair--that's just too easy to read-- but to be able to let your big pair go when you sense youre beat postflop.

Raiser

03-01-2005, 01:22 PM

LOL, you are really foaming at the mouth here /images/graemlins/smile.gif

NL1000 is the highest limit they have. When I looked this morning there were ~5-8 6-max tables at each level for NL400 and higher. I'm not sure if they added more NL200 tables though?

sourbeaver

03-01-2005, 01:36 PM

Big hands play is an ongoing experiment for everybody, but I was just laying the basic odds principle.

We all have to experiment and find our own zone with the big guns /images/graemlins/cool.gif

thatpfunk

03-01-2005, 01:37 PM

link (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=1832414&page=0&view=colla psed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1)

Here is an example of FSUplayer keeping a pot small with AA.

He definetly knows what hes doing.

sourbeaver

03-01-2005, 01:38 PM

Perhaps I put too much emphasis on implied odds as opposed to forcing your opponents to commit with lesser holdings.

With 100BB, it's gonna be much harder to get all-ins with a big pair unimproved that wins it. So by raising more preflop, you get opponents to commit more, thus ensuring that you win bigger pots when your big hand dominates.

sourbeaver

03-01-2005, 01:41 PM

With the clowns at Party, I find that is nearly impossible to do, unless the board screams at you.

You wouldn't believe the calls I get with my big pairs, I actually think I'm beat 90% of the time, yet end up being way ahead almost everytime.

sourbeaver

03-01-2005, 01:42 PM

I wasn't talking Party-specific.
There is 2000NL somewhere for sure /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

sting

03-01-2005, 01:44 PM

Thanks for the link. Love what FSU did with that hand.

This illustrates how deeper stacks should change big pair play. Good players will recognize that big pairs are not huge hands. Bad players will still be looking to get all in with them - and good players will be waiting to pick them off.

Ghazban

03-01-2005, 01:44 PM

This is absolutely true, but only if they will indeed come along for the big raise with their dominated hands (and if they will, then go ahead and raise as much as you can). I play about half on UB (100x stacks) and half on Party (50x stacks-- haven't tried the 'new' Party yet) and don't think the change is nearly as dramatic as people here seem to think.

Winning players ought to be used to 100x stacks (at least) because they've certainly faced such situations in the 50x buyin games (when they're up and someone else at the table is also up).

sourbeaver

03-01-2005, 01:53 PM

I really don't want to get into a great-player-compare contest, but here's how Diablo played QQ.

Repeat : QQ

"4 limpers to me w/ QQ in SB. I ($990) make it $100 to go."
Linky (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=1540291&page=&view=&s b=5&o=)

That's 10% of his stack right there, which would be around 10xBB at a Party table.

schwza

03-01-2005, 01:54 PM

right, the 100x vs 100x doesn't seem too bad to me, as i've been there before (and despite what others are talking about, i'm still happy to get all-in with unimproved big pairs).

it's the 300x vs 300x match ups that will be bizarre, at least for a while. i'm glad though - it seems that all serious NL is played at least 100x, so i can get out of the kiddy pool now.

sourbeaver

03-01-2005, 01:56 PM

But like everyone else, I'm still experimenting here.
I've long, very long, raised 3-4BB with AA-QQ. Lately I've been giving 6-10BB a shot, and have been very pleased by the calls.

And a fish who calls 10$ off his 50 stack preflop, will most probably try to bully you on the flop, or just push to your bet, with n.o.t.h.i.n.g.

It's actually frightening, excitingly frightening.

Dr. Strangelove

03-01-2005, 01:59 PM

This discussion is hilarious to me for a number of reasons. First, I don't play at party (though I will definitely be opening an account now), I play at UB, where you've always (as far as I know) been able to buy in for 100bb. Second, this idea of raising huge preflop with premium pairs; if I have aces I'm going to bet the pot preflop when it gets to me. I might limp in first position if there is a maniac who is raising almost every hand. Otherwise I pot it and play poker.

If you can't get a large portion of your stack or the other person's stack in preflop, play poker. If you are getting stacked most of the time people flop sets on your aces, you are playing terrible.

Most people do not play in such a way as to stack you if you play aces decently. A typical hand will be 2 limpers to you, you pot it. Button calls you with a mid PP to hit a set, two limpers call with their trash (kjo ato etc.). Flop comes t83 three suits. Check Check you pot it, get called by the button, two limpers fold. Turn pairs the three, you check, button bets 1/4 pot, you call. River jack, no flush possible, you check button bets 1/4 pot, you call, button shows 8s full, you muck.

If the flop had been 9h th 3c, I would bet like 2/3 pot when a non heart 3 comes, and then reevaluate when I'm raised.

A lot of people will allow you to stack them when you hit a set and they have tptk. When you play fairly weak tight with your 1 pair hands you necessarily create an asymmetric equity alignment; you put lots of money in with 95+% equity and much less in with 5% equity. This is why bad players lose. Don't be a bad player and get stacked with your aces when you don't have to.

Also, stack size is key here, because many people will still buy in for 50bb and you will be going to the felt with aa because you are often getting 20% of their stack in preflop. The weak tight comment was mainly for when you have 100+ bb and are covered.

Sponger15SB

03-01-2005, 01:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Let's get some discussion going on this...

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you guys think?

Will a 20x buy in bankroll be more than sufficient?

Keep in mind I'm totally anal and used to like 30+ x the buy in with 50bb stacks?

Anyone plan to operate with 10-15 bankroll?

sourbeaver

03-01-2005, 01:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]

This illustrates how deeper stacks should change big pair play. Good players will recognize that big pairs are not huge hands. Bad players will still be looking to get all in with them - and good players will be waiting to pick them off.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is gross.

Any player would want to get all-in with his big pairs before the flop. And I would love to see a "good player" trying to pick me off when I raise 10BB and he takes the sucker end of the bet, actually, he won't. So if I can get good players out and bad players in, err .. need I say more ?

vanHelsing

03-01-2005, 02:00 PM

Doesn't get bluffing, particularly semi-bluffing, get a much more powerful tool?
Isn't there more space now, to push the rocks around?
So, at 6 max, shouldn't one even play more positional LAGgy to catch the deep stacks, in case you hit a great hand?

Ghazban

03-01-2005, 02:02 PM

This is part of what I don't like about playing small stakes. You can do things like just open-pushing with AA and you'll get called. Stuff like that doesn't make you a better player and its only because other players are so terrible that it ever works at all.

Not to pass judgment on anyone else because we all play for different reasons but, personally, I am trying to improve to becoming someone who's +EV at any game, any stakes, any time, any where. This is probably not attainable (and I'm aware of that) but its still what I'm shooting for.

There are many aspects of small stakes play that are profitable at that level but are mostly useless with respect to becoming a better player. As becoming a better player is my goal, I try to avoid those tactics in favor of finding another profitable way to make money on a given hand. In my opinion, overbetting with big pairs preflop is an example of this.

My style of play is almost definitely not the optimal one for small stakes but my hope is that it is one that will translate better to higher stakes and/or tougher, trickier opponents.

Raiser

03-01-2005, 02:03 PM

sourbeaver

03-01-2005, 02:04 PM

Well, I think you need to reread the thread's title then.
I absolutely agree about wanting to improve play for bigger levels. But this is focusing on Party 6-max, I'm just illustrating a way to play for that particular game.

When I pick up a copy of The Wall Street Journal, I don't expect advice on how to pick the Kentucky Derby's winner, no offense /images/graemlins/wink.gif

sourbeaver

03-01-2005, 02:06 PM

Open raising is a bit different.
I'd probably go for my lower end, 5-6BB.

jhall23

03-01-2005, 02:09 PM

I agree with this. I played only a small session today just to wet my appetite and I was much more comfortable with playing LAGgy with postion. Several times I was able to push people out on the flop when they made weak looking bets and it's great not to have to use a good portion of your stack to do so. You can even fire a third shot on the turn now after a pf-raise and not risk a huge portion of your stack.

Wayfare

03-01-2005, 02:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Let's get some discussion going on this...

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you guys think?

Will a 20x buy in bankroll be more than sufficient?

Keep in mind I'm totally anal and used to like 30+ x the buy in with 50bb stacks?

Anyone plan to operate with 10-15 bankroll?

[/ QUOTE ]

IMO bankroll considerations are meaningless if you can instantly free up more money. Most of the people talking so much about bankroll probably fall into this catagory.

thatpfunk

03-01-2005, 02:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]

I really don't want to get into a great-player-compare contest, but here's how Diablo played QQ.

Repeat : QQ

"4 limpers to me w/ QQ in SB. I ($990) make it $100 to go."
Linky

That's 10% of his stack right there, which would be around 10xBB at a Party table.

[/ QUOTE ]

Did you actually read the link you provided? Every good player that responded (ML4L, Matt Flynn, bruiser, FSU, etc) didn't like his play. Diablo makes mistakes as well.

I like when other people prove my point /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Wayfare

03-01-2005, 02:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

But this is what you want. You want to get all-in with AA. You want to lay odds so bad, that, no matter what, you can push the flop and love the outcome win or lose.

[/ QUOTE ]

this was likely the case with 50bb stacks and a decent raise/reraise. however with 100bb stacks, you will have to make a huge preflop raise to lay bad enough odds. no ones gonna call enormous out of character raises.

[/ QUOTE ]

Someone raises to 5x the bb. I look down and see AA. I reraise to 15x BB, he calls.

32 BB in the pot. I check/raise push every flop.

sourbeaver

03-01-2005, 02:14 PM

I didn't read the thread, I didn't even want to post this, now I know why I felt I shouldn't. I can prove my own points. Can you ?

Wayfare

03-01-2005, 02:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The blind structure changes how to correctly play the game.

Let's get some discussion going on this...

[/ QUOTE ]

The biggest change is that people who do not know how to play on a 100x bb stack will get creamed by players comfortable playing with them.

That means most of the party poker players at the moment will be just oozing EV and the NL tables.

Sponger15SB

03-01-2005, 02:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Let's get some discussion going on this...

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you guys think?

Will a 20x buy in bankroll be more than sufficient?

Keep in mind I'm totally anal and used to like 30+ x the buy in with 50bb stacks?

Anyone plan to operate with 10-15 bankroll?

[/ QUOTE ]

IMO bankroll considerations are meaningless if you can instantly free up more money. Most of the people talking so much about bankroll probably fall into this catagory.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks, but what about people who can't instantly free up money?

Sponger15SB

03-01-2005, 02:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I really don't want to get into a great-player-compare contest, but here's how Diablo played QQ.

Repeat : QQ

"4 limpers to me w/ QQ in SB. I ($990) make it $100 to go."
Linky (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=1540291&page=&view=&s b=5&o=)

That's 10% of his stack right there, which would be around 10xBB at a Party table.

[/ QUOTE ]

Clearly this is how you play big pairs.....

***** Hand History for Game *****
$50 NL Hold'em - Tuesday, March 01, 13:30:32 EDT 2005
Table Table (6 max) (Real Money)
Seat 1 is the button
Total number of players : 5
Seat 1: mtfulco ( $40.85 )
Seat 3: XXXXXXXXXX ( $49 )
Seat 6: fish4you ( $47.5 )
Seat 8: mort83 ( $144.5 )
Seat 10: HighCardGuy ( $66.45 )
XXXXXXXXXXX posts small blind [$0.25].
fish4you posts big blind [$0.5].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to XXXXXXXXXX [ 4h 9c ]
mort83 calls [$0.5].
HighCardGuy folds.
mtfulco folds.
XXXXXXXX folds.
fish4you checks.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 2d, Qc, Js ]
fish4you checks.
mort83 checks.
** Dealing Turn ** [ 2h ]
fish4you bets [$1].
mort83 calls [$1].
** Dealing River ** [ 2s ]
fish4you checks.
mort83 bets [$0.5].
fish4you folds.
mort83 shows [ Ac, Ah ] a full house, Twos full of aces.
mort83 wins $3.6 from the main pot with a full house, Twos full of aces.
HighCardGuy has left the table.

vanHelsing

03-01-2005, 02:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Let's get some discussion going on this...

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you guys think?

Will a 20x buy in bankroll be more than sufficient?

Keep in mind I'm totally anal and used to like 30+ x the buy in with 50bb stacks?

Anyone plan to operate with 10-15 bankroll?

[/ QUOTE ]

IMO bankroll considerations are meaningless if you can instantly free up more money. Most of the people talking so much about bankroll probably fall into this catagory.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks, but what about people who can't instantly free up money?

[/ QUOTE ]

how about moving down and building up your br?

sourbeaver

03-01-2005, 02:38 PM

Err .. no ?

Sponger15SB

03-01-2005, 02:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Let's get some discussion going on this...

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you guys think?

Will a 20x buy in bankroll be more than sufficient?

Keep in mind I'm totally anal and used to like 30+ x the buy in with 50bb stacks?

Anyone plan to operate with 10-15 bankroll?

[/ QUOTE ]

IMO bankroll considerations are meaningless if you can instantly free up more money. Most of the people talking so much about bankroll probably fall into this catagory.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks, but what about people who can't instantly free up money?

[/ QUOTE ]

how about moving down and building up your br?

[/ QUOTE ]

I have a bankroll you [censored] tard. Just answer the damn question.

warlockjd

03-01-2005, 02:53 PM

I think you will have less variance because you aren't pushing small preflop edges as much.

At least this is the case for me.

So 20 buyins is enough, 15 even maybe.

Dr. Strangelove

03-01-2005, 02:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

But this is what you want. You want to get all-in with AA. You want to lay odds so bad, that, no matter what, you can push the flop and love the outcome win or lose.

[/ QUOTE ]

this was likely the case with 50bb stacks and a decent raise/reraise. however with 100bb stacks, you will have to make a huge preflop raise to lay bad enough odds. no ones gonna call enormous out of character raises.

[/ QUOTE ]

Someone raises to 5x the bb. I look down and see AA. I reraise to 15x BB, he calls.

32 BB in the pot. I check/raise push every flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hate to be a nit, but I'm not checkraising all in on a jqk , tjq, tkq type flop. (with 100+bb and covered preflop)

thatpfunk

03-01-2005, 02:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Someone raises to 5x the bb. I look down and see AA. I reraise to 15x BB, he calls.

32 BB in the pot. I check/raise push every flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats quite an overbet... ~85bb (most likely more) for a 32 bb pot /images/graemlins/confused.gif

No me gusta.

jhall23

03-01-2005, 02:59 PM

Man he plays Goooood! Staying away from his tables.

In regards to Bankroll, I gotta agree with Warlock. There should be less variance I would think so you can get away with a smaller bankroll.

Until I find lots of data to back it up I am sticking with at least 500 for the 25 6 max tables. I am pretty conservative with my roll.

sourbeaver

03-01-2005, 03:01 PM

BTW I still don't get why you posted that HH, I'm not in it anyway .. ?

fathertime

03-01-2005, 03:03 PM

My guess is that the change in blind structure is not going to change things all that much. I've recently started playing Party Poker; previously I played at PokerRoom and Ultimate Bet, both of which had a .1 and .25 blind structure for the 25NL game.

Having come from these games, I thought that I'd have difficulty switching to the higher blind structure at Party, but my paltry 3 week experience (WOW)has suggested that it benefits me. Because I'm playing much better starters, I've had little difficulty getting my stack up to $50. And so the higher blind structure is more costly for those who like to see over 50% of the flops.

That said the reason I don't think the change will make a ton of difference is because of the present culture at a typical Party Poker table. At PokerRoom 25NL I could raise preflop for $2 at most tables and expect to get 1 to 5 callers. At UB, I had to lower my preflop raises because at a typical table a $2 preflop raise was getting no callers.

And so at Party Poker I will continue to make my standard raise $2 and expect to get called by everbody including the dealer, even though the raise is now 8 x the big blind.

Sponger15SB

03-01-2005, 03:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]
BTW I still don't get why you posted that HH, I'm not in it anyway .. ?

[/ QUOTE ]

IT WAS A JOKE

Wayfare

03-01-2005, 03:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Someone raises to 5x the bb. I look down and see AA. I reraise to 15x BB, he calls.

32 BB in the pot. I check/raise push every flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats quite an overbet... ~85bb (most likely more) for a 32 bb pot /images/graemlins/confused.gif

No me gusta.

[/ QUOTE ]

Assuming that your opponent is probably going to pot every flop, the pot would be significantly larger than the number you quote.

Have you also considered the possibility that he has a hand that he will go to the felt with? An overpair? TPTK?

Maybe he will call with those too. Overbets shouldn't be so scary heads up and with such a monster.

Wayfare

03-01-2005, 03:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

But this is what you want. You want to get all-in with AA. You want to lay odds so bad, that, no matter what, you can push the flop and love the outcome win or lose.

[/ QUOTE ]

this was likely the case with 50bb stacks and a decent raise/reraise. however with 100bb stacks, you will have to make a huge preflop raise to lay bad enough odds. no ones gonna call enormous out of character raises.

[/ QUOTE ]

Someone raises to 5x the bb. I look down and see AA. I reraise to 15x BB, he calls.

32 BB in the pot. I check/raise push every flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hate to be a nit, but I'm not checkraising all in on a jqk , tjq, tkq type flop. (with 100+bb and covered preflop)

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed on both points. I'm not c/r'ing all in on those flops, and you are a nit.

thatpfunk

03-01-2005, 03:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Assuming that your opponent is probably going to pot every flop, the pot would be significantly larger than the number you quote.

Have you also considered the possibility that he has a hand that he will go to the felt with? An overpair? TPTK?

Maybe he will call with those too. Overbets shouldn't be so scary heads up and with such a monster.

[/ QUOTE ]

I feel like you are vastly under estimating players and I am vastly over estimating them, but...

You have defined your hand pretty clearly in this situation. Against a competent opponent they are only calling with hands that beat you...

This is getting way off topic and is trivial though...

sourbeaver

03-01-2005, 03:24 PM

sorry sponger, my bad /images/graemlins/grin.gif

vanHelsing

03-01-2005, 03:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Let's get some discussion going on this...

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you guys think?

Will a 20x buy in bankroll be more than sufficient?

Keep in mind I'm totally anal and used to like 30+ x the buy in with 50bb stacks?

Anyone plan to operate with 10-15 bankroll?

[/ QUOTE ]

IMO bankroll considerations are meaningless if you can instantly free up more money. Most of the people talking so much about bankroll probably fall into this catagory.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks, but what about people who can't instantly free up money?

[/ QUOTE ]

how about moving down and building up your br?

[/ QUOTE ]

I have a bankroll you [censored] tard. Just answer the damn question.

[/ QUOTE ]

English is not my native language.
How about moving down and building up THEIR br?
Is that better?

BTW no reason to get that rude here.

Wayfare

03-01-2005, 03:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]

I feel like you are vastly under estimating players and I am vastly over estimating them, but...

You have defined your hand pretty clearly in this situation. Against a competent opponent they are only calling with hands that beat you...

[/ QUOTE ]

This is party poker low stakes we are talking about right?

thatpfunk

03-01-2005, 03:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Quote:

I feel like you are vastly under estimating players and I am vastly over estimating them, but...

You have defined your hand pretty clearly in this situation. Against a competent opponent they are only calling with hands that beat you...

This is party poker low stakes we are talking about right?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know how else to put it.

I'm playing my big pairs strongly, but I'm taking a lot more into consideration now.

greg nice

03-01-2005, 03:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Assuming that your opponent is probably going to pot every flop, the pot would be significantly larger than the number you quote.

[/ QUOTE ]

uhhhhh
you are gonna reraise preflop and then check the flop? and you think your opponent is going to bet the pot?

fimbulwinter

03-01-2005, 04:20 PM

we have a winner

fim

fimbulwinter

03-01-2005, 04:22 PM

are you shitting me?!

wow, these tables will be a damn goldrush.

fim

fimbulwinter

03-01-2005, 04:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
That means most of the party poker players at the moment will be just oozing EV and the NL tables.

[/ QUOTE ]

seriously. I'll bet the tables are as good as live for a month or so. time to check the internet forum for deposit codes...

fim

thatpfunk

03-01-2005, 04:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
we have a winner

[/ QUOTE ]

Que?

fimbulwinter

03-01-2005, 04:41 PM

this

[ QUOTE ]
manipulation of the pot size depending on your holdings now becomes more important while before hand there was little/none.

[/ QUOTE ]

is a monumental change, definitely one of the most major things that's going to make you money in the midhigh tables against semi-thinking players. i was going to post the above, but then saw you beat me to it.

fimbulwinter

03-01-2005, 04:47 PM

those players that get stuck in the rut of "i bet the pot" really leave a lot on the table too. look at guys like SR who routinely overbet and insta push preflop. yes, open pushing AA is probably the most +EV move in very small NL games, but not in bigger ones, but in general playing in a manner tailored to exploit the specific weaknesses of opponenets is always better than playing pretty, perfect poker.

i'm not saying its not admirable to want to play better, just realize that "better" is quantified by "hurting the other guy the best"

fim

carlo

03-01-2005, 05:00 PM

FWIW the changes will lessen the lottery style previously seen at Party but I do remember a post where some well respected NL players stated that the worst situation for a good big bet poker player is when the buy-in is between 50-150 the BB. Over 150BB's and a good big bet poker player will come into his own.

That being said the lottery will continue but the rocks from UB/Starswill show up and dampen things a bit.

My 2 cents.

regards,
carlo

ihardlyknowher

03-01-2005, 05:14 PM

fim,

Do you mind posting some macro thoughts on how the new structure affects your general starting hand guidelines you posted about a month ago?

My guess: the speculative hands like little suited connecters obviously go up in value, but we still want to have position when we play them. Although, I am confused about how to change playing from the blinds because the deeper stacks offer bigger reward, but being OOP offers bigger risk. Also, I would guess the dominated hands (i.e. AJ, AT, KQ, KJ, QJ, etc.) go way down in value.

Your thoughts would be appreciated.