View Full Version : How would you have played this?
Hagrid
03-01-2005, 09:06 AM
Put Vilian on Ace High and am wonering if you would put him on this too, and if i played it too risky?
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)
SB (t1648)
Hero (t820)
UTG (t435)
MP1 (t1950)
MP2 (t1615)
CO (t887)
Button (t645)
Preflop: Hero is BB with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, CO calls t30, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB completes, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t80</font>, CO calls t50, SB calls t50.
Flop: (t240) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t250</font>, CO calls t250, SB folds.
Turn: (t740) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets t100</font>, Hero calls t100.
River: (t940) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t390 (All-In)</font>, CO calls t390.
Final Pot: t1720
Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
Hero has Kh Kc (full house, jacks full of kings).
CO has As 6s (full house, jacks full of sixes).
Outcome: Hero wins t1720. </font>
Comments on all streets appreciated especially turn, I figured he was gonna call with Ace high and wanted to show weakness and wait to see if an ace came on river scince I thought he would call regardless, is this wrong?
Jman28
03-01-2005, 09:28 AM
The biggest mistake here by far is the amount of your preflop raise. There are two players in the pot, one limper and the SB, and you make it 50 more chips into a 90 chip pot. I raise to 125-150 here.
Flop. This is interesting. I've never played a hand like this one I think. I'd bet a little bit less than you did, to maybe entice a weak hand to call or bluff-raise. I don't think your play is a bad one.
Turn. He called you, so he has something. Let's put him on a range of hands: TT-22, AK, AQ, AJ, AT, KJ, QJ, JT. I assumed he'd reraise you preflop with AA or QQ. Against this range of hands, you're 80% to win.
If you disagree with the range, you can alter it a little, but you should still be a favorite. The pot is significant too. I'd be looking to get my money in. I'd bet out, as you will probably get all these hands to call you, and you would call a bet anyways.
River. My money would already be in. Since yours isn't, I agree with the play.
I'm gonna look at results now and comment....
<font color="white"> Okay. Missed that hand. If we open up his hand range to any ace you become a much greater favorite. </font>
Raise more preflop.
-Jman28
Hagrid
03-01-2005, 09:51 AM
I disagree about the pre-flop raise, I'm the bb and if i make a 125-150 raise here (as I would from all other non-blind positions) it screams out AA or KK even the worst players now that right? My aim with this raise was to knock 1 or 2 of them out, but if they all call what do I care, i'm favourite to win the hand and have enough confidence in myself that I can get away from it on the flop if it looks like i'm beat.
If this is wrong please tell me why as the only reason you have given for it being wrong is because its a half pot sized raise, why is this bad in this situation? Don't I want callers?
Jman28
03-01-2005, 10:11 AM
I'm the bb and if i make a 125-150 raise here (as I would from all other non-blind positions) it screams out AA or KK even the worst players now that right?
I dont think it does. I'll make that same raise with AK, QQ and JJ also.
You want to charge weak aces (a likely holding) to see the flop and you also want to charge pocket pairs.
Think about this. Let's say we each have 800 chips. I have 44, you have AA. I call for 30, It's folded to you, and you raise me to 80.
I'll call that 50 chips happily because about 1/8.5 times, I'm gonna flop a set, and probably take an average of 600 chips from you, as I don't see how you could get away from, say, a Q94 flop.
When I miss my set, I check-fold.
So, (we'll ignore what's already in the pot as it's small compared to the implied odds) 7.5 times, I'll lose 50 chips.
7.5*50 = 375
Then one time, I'll make 600 chips.
1*600 = 600
I just played 8.5 hands with you as a 20/80 preflop underdog and came out ahead 275 chips. (We'll make it 150 since on some rare occasions, we'll each have a set.)
You have to try and raise enough to not let this happen. Weak aces are a big problem too.
Too many bad players will call your raise to 125-150 without the right values. Make them pay! This is how you beat a loose player, by value betting.
-Jman28
Hagrid
03-01-2005, 10:52 AM
O.K maths (nor poker theory) is truly not my strong point and I am not being argumentative, i am just trying to learn.
In the 8.5 hands we just played you were ahead 150 chips but am I not ahead 375 chips (7.5 x 50)? or 600 chips (7.5 x 80)? - dont know which number to go with.
Any way is that not like all draws (flush for example) you might be getting the correct pot odds to draw if I went all in against you with a made hand, so you should call, but I should still bet (or call)as i look to win 3 out of 4 times, just like in the last example i am going to win 7.5 out of 8.5 times? Therefore the times I win far outweigh the times i loose and the times I get people to fold with a worse hand than mine?
Please write back as I'm sure I must be wrong somewhere:o
The point is however, in that situation I think if I had raised as you say, I would of got no callers, I raised to make the pot bigger and maybe loose a few callers but I did not want then all to fold which I am sure would of happened had I bet more and then we would have no hand to talk of.
Jman28
03-01-2005, 11:09 AM
O.K maths (nor poker theory) is truly not my strong point and I am not being argumentative, i am just trying to learn.
No worries, I don't mean to sound argumentative either.
In the 8.5 hands we just played you were ahead 150 chips but am I not ahead 375 chips (7.5 x 50)? or 600 chips (7.5 x 80)? - dont know which number to go with.
To make this easier, I like to look at it from the point of view of me, with the 44. I lose 50 7.5 times. The 30 I already put in is gone already and shouldn't factor into my call here, except for pot odds sake. This is the 375 number.
The 150 came after I took the 600 that I'd win once, subtracted your 375, making it 225, and then taking away a little more to account for the times we both have a set.
So, I win 600, then lose 375 and another 75. I come out ahead 150. This is very inexact.
Any way is that not like all draws (flush for example) you might be getting the correct pot odds to draw if I went all in against you with a made hand, so you should call, but I should still bet (or call)as i look to win 3 out of 4 times, just like in the last example i am going to win 7.5 out of 8.5 times? Therefore the times I win far outweigh the times i loose and the times I get people to fold with a worse hand than mine?
I think I see what you're saying. This is a little confusing. The difference is that in this case, you can make it so that I don't have odds to call. With the all-in bet on the flush draw example, you can't.
You want to let me make a mistake. If you underbet, players will not make the mistake of folding. If you overbet, they often do make the mistake of calling.
Am I answering your question? I feel like I'm not doing a great job here. Let me know.
-Jman28
Hagrid
03-01-2005, 12:09 PM
Thankyou, I do understand that I have to make it incorrect for them to call and for every mistake they make, I win money. I've really always understood that but only applied it to post-flop action, I guess if always been only interested in raising pre-flop to steal the blinds, make the pot bigger or set up a bluff e.t.c.,never to make it incorrect for them to call. Especially when you are in early stages and are playing really tight, I always just thought if you hit a flop you are going to hit it big and blinds are so small that you do not see their mistake as too costly. I thought the way its was going to cost them big is if I hit a flop (early rounds) and get them to part with their chips.
Having said that I do (honestly) always raise between 90 and 150 chips on level two, depending on amout of limpers, in all positions but the blinds. I thought doing that there would make it obvious what hand I had, but I take your point and try it in the blinds now too. I do see others doing it all the time and getting called by far worse hands.
Many thanks for your time and patience.
Jman28
03-01-2005, 12:13 PM
Many thanks for your time and patience.
You are welcome.
Maybe someone else could weigh in their views on this. I expect many people to recommend the larger raise preflop, but I'm not sure if they use the same reasoning that I do.
Good luck.
-Jman28
Phil Van Sexton
03-01-2005, 12:39 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I'm the bb and if i make a 125-150 raise here (as I would from all other non-blind positions) it screams out AA or KK even the worst players now that right?
[/ QUOTE ]
No, they don't know this. Even if they did, half of them would call anyway if both of their cards were the same color.
[ QUOTE ]
if they all call what do I care, i'm favourite to win the hand and have enough confidence in myself that I can get away from it on the flop if it looks like i'm beat.
[/ QUOTE ]
You should care. Like jman said, if I have 44, I'd call preflop and then call your small raise. I'm actually hoping you have AA or KK because you have given me the correct odds to flop a set and take your whole stack.
Raise more and force your opponents to make a mistake by calling.
Scuba Chuck
03-01-2005, 01:13 PM
JMan, excellent responses and explanations. And I concur with the larger reraise for the reasons stated and more, as you might have the opportunity to get all your money in the middle Preflop.
To add on to the question about flush draws. One unique factor about flopping a set vs. flopping a flush draw is that it's an easy decision post flop. Obviously, fold 7.5 times, call/raise 1 time. Furthermore, flushes are not hidden, like an OE straight draw or set can be. Thus you are less likely to be paid off.
For example, a common mistake might be something like an UTG mini raising AA. I'm in the BB with TJo. I forget the other action, but it's not relevant - only callers. I call his bet, as I am capping the action with some decent pot odds. Flop is a Q93 rainbow. I check, AA bets a smaller amount to try and build the pot, probably thinking this is a "safe" flop, and doesn't appear very coordinated. It's very likely AA plans on putting all his chips in the middle at some point, and perhaps the turn will reveal K or an 8 (which it did). Whamo.
Just some thoughts to think about.
callmedonnie
03-01-2005, 03:13 PM
I think a stroner preflop raise is a good idea. Don't give them to much credit. With two players with money already in, how often do you not get action with a raise, even a decent size like 125-150? I typically do. With this flop, I'm likely to be all in at any point. You're thinking the odds he has a jack are slim and he's thinking the same about you. he could have any pocket pair, or just some high cards that have him banking on good kickers. If he has a jack, ouch but I think you have to see. I would probably be in sooner, and definitely call his all-in at any point.
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