Coldcalling KQs on the button - always taboo?

[MisterKing]

PF raiser is a loose cannon, raising nearly 20% of his hands pre-flop and frequently paying off all the way to the river with second pair, etc. I generally don't coldcall with KQs in any situation, but I wonder if this was a reasonable situation for an exception to that rule.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif. UTG posts a blind of $3.
UTG (poster) checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, CO calls, Hero calls, SB calls, BB calls, UTG folds.

Flop: (11.50 SB) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, CO calls, Hero calls, SB calls, BB folds.

Turn: (7.75 BB) T/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, CO calls, Hero calls, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises</font>, UTG+1 calls, CO calls, Hero calls.

River: (15.75 BB) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, UTG+1 folds, CO folds, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 16.75 BB

[jason_t]

It's fine. Maybe I'll be chastized for this, but I'd think about raising that flop.

[einbert]

I think this is fine in such a multiway pot. I play the whole hand the same.

[Wired Jokers]

[ QUOTE ]
It's fine. Maybe I'll be chastized for this, but I'd think about raising that flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

How is raising the flop good, at all? Seems pretty chip spewy to me.

To answer the original question, the pre-flop cold call is one of the rare exceptions to do so. I would consider raising pre-flop (read dependant), but usually I would just call, especially if the blinds are loose, which is common in low stakes.

[einbert]

[ QUOTE ]
It's fine. Maybe I'll be chastized for this, but I'd think about raising that flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like just calling because if you hit a K or Q on the turn hopefully the PFR will bet and you can raise to protect your hand somewhat.

[Mike Gallo]

Explain your rationale behind raising please.

[adamstewart]

[ QUOTE ]
Explain your rationale behind raising please.

[/ QUOTE ]


Against a typical EP preflop raiser, I wouldn't raise this flop. I don't think I would here, either.


However, given read on the villain:
"PF raiser is a loose cannon, raising nearly 20% of his hands pre-flop and frequently paying off all the way to the river with second pair, etc. "


... it may be okay here (potential free card, and potential value raise, given the number of opponents).


Adam

[adamstewart]

I'd play it the same.


Adam

[me454555]

Yuck. I don't like cold calling at all here. While cold calling is definatly better than folding, raising is clearly superior.

1) raiser is a loose cannon and you probobly have a better hand

2) You trap someone in the middle who you probobly have a better hand

3) You have position

4) You can get the blinds out who might want to call b/c they are getting great odds.

5) You can eliminate UTG poster

The whole hand plays differently if you 3 bet this pf and makes playing on the flop much easier. The way you played this postflop is fine.

[adamstewart]

[ QUOTE ]
Yuck. I don't like cold calling at all here. While cold calling is definatly better than folding, raising is clearly superior.

1) raiser is a loose cannon and you probobly have a better hand

2) You trap someone in the middle who you probobly have a better hand

3) You have position

4) You can get the blinds out who might want to call b/c they are getting great odds.

5) You can eliminate UTG poster

The whole hand plays differently if you 3 bet this pf and makes playing on the flop much easier. The way you played this postflop is fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very nice analysis.


What would you do if EP raiser was:

(a) Unknown
(b) TAGish

???

Adam

[bernie]

If there were more callers in between preflop, I can see coldcalling. In this case, I'd be 3 betting.

b

[me454555]

unknown, I still 3 bet b/c of the utg poster and blinds. The extra dead money is worth the extra small bet.

Tag - this is the time I cold call b/c the extra money in the pot cushions me against the tag. The tag is also more likely to play better preflop and raise w/better strating hands so I may not have an equity edge. The tag is also more likely to play better postflop and I'd rather not get into a heads up situation w/someone who is likely to play well postflop b/c it won't be as profitable as allowing others to come along too and make mistakes.

[MisterKing]

[ QUOTE ]
Yuck. I don't like cold calling at all here. While cold calling is definatly better than folding, raising is clearly superior.

1) raiser is a loose cannon and you probobly have a better hand

[/ QUOTE ]

Sometimes, yes, but many times, no. Remember, the LAGs get great hands sometimes too. This seems awfully similar to the AQo coldcall hand discussed here (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Number=1817194&amp;page=&amp;view=&amp;sb=5&amp; o=&amp;fpart=all&amp;vc=1), where the consensus was to call on the button.

[ QUOTE ]
2) You trap someone in the middle who you probobly have a better hand

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps... but if the coldcallers between have decent standards, this may be very untrue.

[ QUOTE ]
3) You have position

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep.

[ QUOTE ]
4) You can get the blinds out who might want to call b/c they are getting great odds.

[/ QUOTE ]

True, though I think in this case we don't mind one bit if the blinds come along, do we? We're probably going to have to do better than just top pair to be profitable long-term (since some of the time the EP loose raiser has us dominated when a K or Q hits).

[ QUOTE ]
5) You can eliminate UTG poster

[/ QUOTE ]

70% of the time or thereabouts.

[ QUOTE ]
The whole hand plays differently if you 3 bet this pf and makes playing on the flop much easier. The way you played this postflop is fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
We're probably going to have to do better than just top pair to be profitable long-term (since some of the time the EP loose raiser has us dominated when a K or Q hits).

[/ QUOTE ]

Why are you so worried about a loose raiser dominating you when you have a near premium hand? When a maniac raises, does this cause you to just call instead of 3 bet because he may actually have a better hand? I know that's an extreme example, but c'mon. That's a little weak to think that, isn't it?

And yes, the more players you let in, the more likely a single pair won't hold up.

This looks like an easy 3 bet to me.

b

[me454555]

You said the raiser raises about 20% of the hands.

Let me give you a different scenerio. You're against a player who only plays 20% of hand but never raises pf. He limps and you get another limper. You look down and see KQs what do you do?

You raise. Why do you raise? b/c he's limping w/20% of his hands and you most likely have the best hand even though this player will limp with only the best 20% of his hands.

This situation is similar to yours in that the raiser will raise with 20% of the hands. In this case, you still might have a better hand than him so you raise b/c you have pot equity.

If the cold caller knows the raiser is aggro, he might be calling cold w/worse hands than normal so you don't fear him as much. This is yet anohter reason to raise.

In both scenerios, your opponent could have aces. You raise b/c more likely than not, you have a hand that beats his.

[jt1]

I'd raise here preflop, and with this flop if the LAG bet into me (as such a player is likely to do) and everyone else folded, I'd just call down. Is that terrible?

[MisterKing]

One quick clarification -- I said I'd SEEN the EP raiser raise 20% of his hands. My sample was only about 100 hands total, so he could have just been running hot. That said, I believe my description of him as a loose cannon is/was accurate.

I see your collective points re: raising. I'm actually not that sure there's a huge difference in EV between calling and raising. Folding clearly sucks. Postflop I think this is straightforward the way the cards came out...

In a loose, small stakes game like the one this was played in, a solid postflop player will probably find a near equal amount of value with a pre-flop call or raise... you'll win more small pots with the raise, and a smaller number of large pots with the call.

Though I like your analogy between the guy who limps 20% and our raiser who raises ~20%, there's one key difference you ignore: in the case where its two bets to us, a raise to 3 bets means we're putting in many more bets as a proportion of the eventual pot pre-flop than we are when its one bet to us and we make it two. This difference matters, I assure you.

Thanks again for the input everyone.

[me454555]

[ QUOTE ]
Though I like your analogy between the guy who limps 20% and our raiser who raises ~20%, there's one key difference you ignore: in the case where its two bets to us, a raise to 3 bets means we're putting in many more bets as a proportion of the eventual pot pre-flop than we are when its one bet to us and we make it two. This difference matters, I assure you.


[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, you are putting in proportionally less bets here b/c you have to put in 2 bets already. Going fromm 2 bets to 3 bets is only a 33% increase in expense, going from 1 bet to 2 bets is a 50% increase in expense. This is analagous to playing more aggressively in big pots. Since the reward is so big, making an extra raise or 2 isn't quite as bad a mistake as when the pot is small.

[ QUOTE ]
you'll win more small pots with the raise, and a smaller number of large pots with the call.


[/ QUOTE ]

Once the pot is 2 bets to you, it is no longer a small pot. There are 6.5 sbs in it and you are about to add at least 2. I think you need to start thinking about protecting your hand here and take the pot equity that you have. If you 3 bet and only the cold caller and laggy call, there will a total of 11.5 sbs in the pot pf. Thats a pretty nice size pot right there and we havn't even seen the flop yet.

The way you played this post flop was good but it was also a marginal situation to begin with b/c the flop was bad. There were 13.5 sbs in the pot and you were drawing to 5 outs. This is clearly a good call but it would have been better hand you pumped the pot pf when you had a higher pot equity. Remember, most of the time you will flop tp w/a good kicker. Would you rather play that against 2 opponents or 4?

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
If there were more callers in between preflop, I can see coldcalling. In this case, I'd be 3 betting.

b

[/ QUOTE ]


why wouldn't you 3-bet even if there were more callers?

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
and with this flop if the LAG bet into me (as such a player is likely to do) and everyone else folded, I'd just call down. Is that terrible?

[/ QUOTE ]

Depends on the LAGs postlfop betting standards. Even their range narrows a bit postflop. Especially if they think you're calling down. If you're a tighter player, and he sees you that way, you might be able to blow him off a hand.

If he'd slowdown to aggression, why not pop the flop, free card the turn, call a river bet. Or, pop the turn with a move, he may fold A high or a smaller pair to the board, if called take the free showdown. This move could look like a slowplayed high PP in accordance to a preflop 3 bet.

b

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
why wouldn't you 3-bet even if there were more callers?

[/ QUOTE ]

I probably would with this hand. Im just saying in general terms of coldcalling a raise. I want at least 2+ coldcallers in between. Otherwise, Im raising or folding.

b