Monster pot value-raise? (Look at these L-Passive party 3/6 tables)

[ebranig]

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, Hero calls, BB calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, CO calls.

Is this call too loose? In a normal 3/6 game I let it go but this table has been paying hands off, period.

Flop: (12 SB) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, CO calls, Button calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (9 BB) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, CO calls, Button folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, CO calls.

Great value?

River: (19 BB) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls, UTG+2 folds, MP1 folds, CO folds.

Final Pot: 21 BB

[einbert]

What's the table name?

Yeah you're 5-1 to come in on your flush and you have 5 customers, plus your overcard outs might be good. So it's a good raise.

[Jules22]

nice hand sir!

[Harv72b]

I think I was on another sweet table with you earlier tonight. Looks like I need to add you to my buddy list--you have great table-finding skillz. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

The hand looks great...I sincerely hope BB was just paying you off.

[ewile]

My weak-tight reaction was to suggest that this was a fold Preflop. Guess not...

[Harv72b]

On most online tables, this is an automatic fold preflop. But on a table where you're routinely seeing 6 to the flop and you know that most of them will call to the river with any pair (and play any two, so the 9 kicker may well be best), you can get away with playing a hand like this for 1 2/3 SB.

Then again, I'm hardly an authority. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[einbert]

I like the preflop call with what, 4 limpers? And good relative position at that.

[einbert]

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, MP3 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 caps</font>, MP3 calls, Hero calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (18.33 SB) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
MP1 checks, MP2 checks, MP3 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls.

Turn: (11.16 BB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

River: (17.16 BB) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP1 folds, MP2 calls.

Final Pot: 21.16 BB

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
MP2 has Jd Js (two pair, queens and jacks).
Hero has Qh Ac (full house, queens full of aces).
Outcome: Hero wins 21.16 BB. </font>

[Harv72b]

True, but especially with the 3/6 blind structure, I want to know that I'm getting called down by a couple players on the times when I hit my flush (or two pair or what have you). If the entire field is likely to fold to a bet without a high /images/graemlins/heart.gif on a 3-suited board, then the preflop call becomes very marginal at best. I think, anyway...I'm no math whiz, so I'll let one of them figure out if that's right.

[Jules22]

lol, the guy in einberts post capped preflop, clearly he is commited for multiple bets on every street with third pair

[MisterKing]

Nice play postflop -- I like it all the way. Pre-flop, however, I'm not an avid fan of your PF call. Or at least I wasn't until I worked out the math below. On further reflection, it MIGHT be ok as long as you don't pay off in reverse dominating positions (e.g. flop TPNK, no draws).

You're getting 3.6:1 when you call initially (5:18), and can probably count on getting actual odds of ~5:28 or 5.6:1 or so when the action is complete pre-flop (I'm counting on all three limpers calling, and the BB calling 1/3 of the time, raising 0%). In a 5-way pot, do you have 14% equity with K9s? I'm not sure that you do... and you have position working against you. That said, with implied odds you probably don't need the full 14% equity. For the times you flop two pair, a gutshot, or a four flush, you're looking good to capture many times your pre-flop investment, and will certainly have the odds to chase. Hmmm....

In 2/4 this is an obvious call... but the 3/6 blind structure makes it more debatable. In 15/30 it would be a clear call as well...

[bobbyi]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah you're 5-1 to come in on your flush and you have 5 customers, plus your overcard outs might be good. So it's a good raise.

[/ QUOTE ]
You're actually 4-1 on the flush (assuming all of the flush cards are really outs for you), but you have no guarantee of getting that many customers when you raise. Sometimes BB is going to three-bet and drive out the field, which would suck.