hand from Empire 200k last night

[2005]

BB is a short, but not desperate, tight player(2+2'er). The rest of the table has been pretty much tight. BB had AJ and I think his push preflop is pretty bad. A stop-n-go is the best play for him I think. Thoughts?

Gavin


Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t2000 (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Button (t45945)
SB (t9898)
BB (t11460)
UTG (t51830)
hero (t27554)
MP2 (t11076)
CO (t12094)

Preflop: hero is MP1 with 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">hero raises to t5000</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">2+2'er raises to t11460 (All-In)</font>, hero calls t6460.

Flop: (t23920) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

Turn: (t23920) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

River: (t23920) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: t23920

[Double Eagle]

Actually I'm going to disagree with you on this. Against alot of players AJ might not look too great here, but given your range of opening hands, getting you to make a pot odds call pre-flop with a potentially dominated hand is not the worst thing in the world.

It looks like you are already in the money, but still a ways from the final table so he definitely could use a full double up. Why would he let you off the hook by calling and then pushing the flop?

[gyndok]

[ QUOTE ]
BB is a short, but not desperate, tight player(2+2'er). The rest of the table has been pretty much tight. BB had AJ and I think his push preflop is pretty bad. A stop-n-go is the best play for him I think. Thoughts?

Gavin


Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t2000 (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Button (t45945)
SB (t9898)
BB (t11460)
UTG (t51830)
hero (t27554)
MP2 (t11076)
CO (t12094)

Preflop: hero is MP1 with 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">hero raises to t5000</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">2+2'er raises to t11460 (All-In)</font>, hero calls t6460.

Flop: (t23920) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

Turn: (t23920) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

River: (t23920) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: t23920

[/ QUOTE ]


Question from double a ball:

Suppose he goes with the stop-n-go and bets out post-flop, what 3 cards on the board will make you fold for 6500 more when the pot will be laying you almost 3:1? An ace maybe..

G

[2005]

Anything with an A I wouldn't be calling and a flop with all spades or all clubs where I don't pair are 2 that I can think of off the top of my head. I'm sure there are others.

Gavin

[Double Eagle]

Obviously he doesn't know what you have exactly here, but from his position, if you are ahead with something like 33, most of the flops that will be scary to you are the same ones that will have made his hand. You will call the flop push every time you are way ahead and rarely when way behind.

It seems to me the only flops where this is EV+ over pushing pre-flop are two paint flops that miss him, where it is still a coinflip, but the board texture scares you off of an underpair.

[gyndok]

[ QUOTE ]
Anything with an A I wouldn't be calling and a flop with all spades or all clubs where I don't pair are 2 that I can think of off the top of my head. I'm sure there are others.

Gavin

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, so what you are saying is that for 3:1 no way you are folding preflop but post-flop there are some flops that you wont call the 6500.. I suppose that makes sense.

But with the blinds representing such a large percentage of his/your stacks, he is just looking for a double through and probably was not considering that you might fold postflop. I can't say that I would think I could get you to fold post-flop there..

[MLG]

stop n go is absolutely the right play. you can actually get a lot of folds from hands like 67s when they miss, which are hands that you don't want to be all-in against preflop in this situation. you have no FE preflop, and at least a smidgeon postflop.

[gyndok]

[ QUOTE ]
stop n go is absolutely the right play. you can actually get a lot of folds from hands like 67s when they miss, which are hands that you don't want to be all-in against preflop in this situation. you have no FE preflop, and at least a smidgeon postflop.

[/ QUOTE ]


From the BB's perspective, can you really put Gavin on a hand similar to 67s in that spot?

G

[schwza]

if the big blind calls pre-flop and hits a pair, he's still supposed to push, right?

[MLG]

given that it was bubble time, my knowledge of gavin's play, and the way the table was described my range of cards for gavin, is two cards. I think its possible that if he was dealt the 9 diamonds, and a Wild Draw 4 card he would still be raising.

[MLG]

yeah. I miiiiiiiight check an A but I doubt it.

[2005]

Ha, caught ya! I wouldn't raise with that card, but with the 14 of purple horseshoes I would. Seriously though, I'm not raising every hand, but I'm raising alot of them and I was picking my spots well last night. I tend to attack the semi-short stacks in this spot. BTW, we were already in the money.

Gavin

[MLG]

well I actually think being in the money makes playig back with AJ easier, although maybe it makes your raising standards slightly tighter. AJ is just too much hand with that small stack against a very loose open raiser to lay down. Manipulate it to get folding all the folding equity you can.

[LethalRose]

I push PF like Villian played it.

why stop n go with only 5BB's? time to get my money in the middle.

[MLG]

Shortstacked is precisely the time to stop n go. If you have a bigger stack then you have FE preflop and there is no reason to stop n go.

[2005]

I don't disagree that his hand is way too big to fold against me the way I was playing last night, I just have a disagreement with the way he played it. I think he should have used the stop-n-go.

Gavin

[MLG]

so do I.

[LethalRose]

[ QUOTE ]
Shortstacked is precisely the time to stop n go. If you have a bigger stack then you have FE preflop and there is no reason to stop n go.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would think if I have no FE preflop being the short stack i need to get the most chips with AJ and vs the big stack im all in PF. A stop and go may work, but you miss out on 5k in chips. The extra chips he acquires would allow him to steal.

I wasnt in the tournament myself but im thinking the extra chips he got allowed him to move up a few spots in the money, maybe even come back to an average stack.

You can tell I never stop and go..

[2005]

The problem is... you're getting that extra 5k in when it is absolutely correct for the other player to call. What the stop and go mainly does is reduce your variance by getting folds when you want them.

Gavin

[Double Eagle]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't disagree that his hand is way too big to fold against me the way I was playing last night, I just have a disagreement with the way he played it. I think he should have used the stop-n-go.

Gavin

[/ QUOTE ]
I guess I don't understand where his additional equity is coming from by stop-n-going. You said yourself that you fold to his push if the flop has an ace. Obviously he wants a call in that case. Do you really fold enough (ultimate) winners to offset the chips he loses when you fold your (ultimate) losers?

[2005]

ok, let me give some examples:

flop comes K35, I obviously am calling when he pushes, he would have lost this just the same if he pushed preflop.

flop is 234, I fold, but perhaps a K or 9 would have come on the turn or river in which case he wins when he wouldn't have by pushing preflop.

flop is AKx, I call his all in and he gets the last 5k in in better shape then he would have if it went in preflop.

There are tons of examples, but these are some that reduce his variance.

Gavin

[Double Eagle]

You are really folding the undercard flop? Who are you and what have you done with the real Gavin?

[LethalRose]

I understand how this concept works so I guess it comes down to personal style.

with only 5BB's and already 2k of my money in the pot, I push with AJ against an opponent i know raises with a wide variety of hands. Have to make a move eventually. AJ is a draw hand most profitable when you see 5 cards. Im not going to allow villian to hit a hand unless he puts his money in the middle.

[2005]

ok maybe not... I was trying to come up with some examples and was having trouble lol

Gavin

[LethalRose]

Variance? who cares about variance when you have 5BB's and AJo in the BB. based on his read of what hands you may have and what his hand is, hes either a slight dog or a favorite. I get my money in PF and if I lose cards happen. get up shake hands go home watch espn and bang my gf.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
ok maybe not... I was trying to come up with some examples and was having trouble lol


[/ QUOTE ]

If it's really giving you trouble, then a push pre-flop is quite possibly the better move by him.

[Chizoad]

And it also gets folds when you don't want them. My guess is that the times you get folds when you do want them vs when you don't even out, which means it doesn't really matter if you push preflop, or if you use the stop-n-go in this situation.

[HoldingFolding]

Now that is funny.

[kuro]

I'm just not convinced that a stop and go is the right move here. What hands that are ahead of you on the flop could you get to fold? A missed AK or AQ maybe? So why give the villain a chance to fold when you are ahead? This looks like a clear preflop push to me.

[MLG]

The point of a stop n go is not to get hands that you are ahead of to fold. The point of the stop n go is to shut out your opponent from seeing the last two cards, even when he has the right price to do so. You are willing to give up a little equity to reduce your varience, that's the point of the stop n go.

To that end, if you miss and he misses while holding K9 and you push on the flop and he folds, then you have made him make a mistake because getting 3.5-1 he has the right price to call.

[Apathy]

Ok I just saw this thread and I must say I really did consider the stop n go at the time. Clearly folding is not even an option Gavin was raising very frequently, and knew I had been playing tight, he had stolen my blinds once on the bubble and at least one other time when it was down to two tables when I happened to have trash.

The chip situation was such that if I didn't double soon I had no real shot at a good finish, there were about 18 people left, typical empire payout structure.

If I push I get the money in well ahead of his range of raising hands here and get a chance to double up with the best of it. The only thing a stop n go does for me is reduce variance (not something I really want since I need to double) and let Gavin get away the times I flop an ace.

I understand the arguments presented by MLG but I think if he saw the chip counts at both tables at the time he would think less of the stop n go here.

[billyjex]

I agree with your push. We want all the chips we can get at this point and Gavin calling with an inferior hand is what I would want, even if it might knock me out of the tourney when I wouldn't have been if I stop &amp; go'd.

[Apathy]

[ QUOTE ]
ok, let me give some examples:

flop comes K35, I obviously am calling when he pushes, he would have lost this just the same if he pushed preflop.

flop is 234, I fold, but perhaps a K or 9 would have come on the turn or river in which case he wins when he wouldn't have by pushing preflop.

flop is AKx, I call his all in and he gets the last 5k in in better shape then he would have if it went in preflop.

There are tons of examples, but these are some that reduce his variance.

Gavin

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok so in the three examples you stated on #1 there is no difference in the outcome and chips cahnging hands.

#2 Is horrible for me because AJ is quite far ahead of K9 on a 234 flop and you would be making a correct fold

#3 Would give the same result as a push preflop as well.

Really unless you can give me examples of flops where you are ahead of me and then fold on the flop, I can't respect your stance on this hand. Give me a low pair on this hand and *maybe* I would use the stop and go but certaintly not with AJ at this point in the tournament.

[MLG]

Everybody who is condemning the use of the stop n go here is doing so predicated on what Gavin had. You don't know what Gavin had when you look at AJ preflop. If you knew he had K9 then a push isn't clearly worse than a stop n go, but you don't know. You have no idea what Gavin had, and that is what makes the stop n go right.

[kuro]

Don't you think AJ is a little less than 60:40 vs the range Gavin could raise with in this situation? Am I being too loose on the hands that he'd steal with?

If you had a small pair in the blinds, then I could see how a stop and go would maybe be better because you're looking at maybe a 50:50 vs. the range.

[Double Eagle]

[ QUOTE ]
Everybody who is condemning the use of the stop n go here is doing so predicated on what Gavin had. You don't know what Gavin had when you look at AJ preflop. If you knew he had K9 then a push isn't clearly worse than a stop n go, but you don't know. You have no idea what Gavin had, and that is what makes the stop n go right.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's exactly what I was not doing in my initial response.

I think at least some of the equity from an effective use of the stop and go needs to come from hands that fold while ahead in order to make up for the equity lost when he forces a fold from hands that are behind. Let's give Gavin 33 here instead of K9 - what flops will he fold to a push? Aces and 2 paints I would think. In fact its only the two paint flops that miss us that we want Gavin to fold. I don't know how to calculate the odds of this happening but it seems to me that this is going to occur far less often than when the flop is scary and hits us. Even then we aren't in terrible shape with 10 outs.

Gavin's original post opined that the original line with AJ was a big mistake. I still have not seen any scenario that would have been EV+ for him to have taken Gavin's line here over the pre-flop push. Yes he might be able to reduce variance very slightly, but only at the cost of quite a few chips in the process - and at this point in the tourney those extra chips were very important and certainly worth trading for that addtional variance.

[Apathy]

[ QUOTE ]
Everybody who is condemning the use of the stop n go here is doing so predicated on what Gavin had. You don't know what Gavin had when you look at AJ preflop. If you knew he had K9 then a push isn't clearly worse than a stop n go, but you don't know. You have no idea what Gavin had, and that is what makes the stop n go right.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your post makes no real point... of course I don't know what he had, only the range of hands he could have, but how does that fact make the stop and go better, which of my points and the points of others in favour of pushing don't work given the fact that we only know his range of hands.

[iRoD]

Apathy, your push makes sense and I don't think its close... stop n go does not make sense because it is likely you have a better hand then Gavin...
I just the huge variance between the flops he hits and the flops he doesn't hit.


I can tell you all that Apathy considered this hand for more than an instant and I agree with his decision.

Cheers Pat /images/graemlins/spade.gif