Seen this odd play a bit in the past few days

[TJD]

I have seen guys check/call flop and then bet turn from EP with top pair quite a bit over the past few days at 10/20.

I have not noticed it much before but that could be me not payng attention.

It has been used by indifferent players as far as I can see.

Is this common?

Is it a sensible thing to do?

Why do they do it?


Trevor

One guy was so predicatble that when he CR me on the flop, I KNEW he did not have top pair :-)

[TJD]

So, has no-one else seen it or have I been asleep? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

T

[TJD]

Still of no interest? What am I missing here? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

This line looks most odd to me. Is there really nothing of interest to discuss? Not one person has a view? Until you get a read on the guy it is actually quite difficult to play against. At least it was for me /images/graemlins/smile.gif

However, on to more important things....

I have had a TERRIBLE month - to the nearest 0.27BB how much of a downswing can I have before I am judged less than world class?

AND of course

My PT stat for farting while under the influence is just below 2% now is this about the right level for a winning player who should I try and get it up to 2.05?

Oh and by the way should I wear a red or a green skirt if I refuse to 5 bet the flop with TPTK even if the limit is 4 bets? AND if I choose red should I "ever" choose a green top ... I mean....

Oh and by the way did I say I have had a terrible month - could you all please massage my ego for a while; I really need it.

Oh and another PT stat, my win rate over 8,000,000,000,000 hands is 75.2BB/10 is this sustainable? I feel I get sucked out on a lot!

AND another point. Is it correct to insult opponents at the table? I am not sure whether this is +EV or not. I currently play 49.2 tables at once averaging 64321.5647631 hands per Venus hour. Is this optimum? Could I increase my BB/32.47 by adding an extra 3 tables and NOT insulting oppoents or should I reduce my tables by 4 and increase my insult/millisecond rate to 32.46?

And finally for tonight - don't worry I'll send another one tomorrow - I have a very difficult problem. If all 3 opponents limp in preflop before me when I am on the buton, it seems as if I can play T8.3s for a single bet as long as the SB will fold and the BB will only raise 31.73456278% of the time AND the average AF stat for the flop of the first 2 players is < 2.84 and the 3rd player has a TURN stat > 3.1 as long as the BB does NOT have an AF-TOT >1,7 and a river fold >32.

My problem is that I can't find the 8.3 card. /images/graemlins/mad.gifI found the 10 OK (that is T right?) but I could only find an 8.5 and an 8.2. Is it all right to play these instead? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

These are very important and difficult concepts so if you could reply in depth it would be a great help.

TYIA /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Trevor

[dave44]

Play is not sensible at all in the way your opponent was using it. He allows draws to see cheap turn cards and lets you raise him on the turn everytime you have him beat. I suggest you punish him.

[helpmeout]

People like to throw out bets on the flop to try and win it right there and if they have position they take the freecard on the turn.

I think the idea of the bet out on the turn is so

1) People dont get a freecard

2) People sometimes call down with middle pair because its a less powerful move than the checkraise.

A lot of people fold on the flop if you bet out from early position so by just checking you can induce a bluff then bet the turn so they dont take the freecard. They dont checkraise because they want people to pay double on the turn.

[fyodor]

[ QUOTE ]
It has been used by indifferent players as far as I can see.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please define 'indifferent players'.

You will get no response from me even if you do define it though, because I don't play the 10/20 and haven't seen it with any frequency from any players at 5/10.

p.s. I checked my deck and I don't have a 10.anything

[Grisgra]

Have you heard the phrase "Gaybet"? It means to suddenly take the lead on the turn or river when you pick up (or already had) a piece of the board or a draw. It usually means weakness. I know I'm quite suspicous when someone check/calls the flop but then suddenly takes the lead on the turn.

They may be adjusting to this and betting out with top pair so that if you raise them, suspecting weakness, they can 3-bet your ass.

[Brom]

I have nopticed this play being used more and more recently too, so you're not alone. I see it more in the higher end (10/20+) 6 max games, and the mid level full games (2/4 - 5/10). I'm not entirely sure why some of the people do them (even after I've seen there hand at the showdown), but I'll give a general example of the times I've picked that particular line.

The times I've tried it the pot has to be a fairly decent size preflop, usually meaning it was 3 bet and there are maybe 2-4 players in. I think that your example applies to headsup situations but my idea still pertains to them.

Say on the flop I have a hand such as mid pair plus overcard plus backdoor nut flush. Top card on the board is a King, and I bet into my lone opponent to check him for it. Sure enough, he raises me and I just call. Now the turn brings a low card of my flush suit, giving me the four flush to go with my mid pair plus overcard combo. I bet out again to:
a) Possibly make him fold if he was raising the flop for a free card type play (chance of this is slim).
and,
b) I actually want him to raise me here due to pot equity. Due to the number of outs I have now, my hand can stand to be in for two bets, and I hope it is two bets so that I can maximize my value.

I used to make this play occasionally when I was less experienced, and I pretty much never make it any more. I couldn't tell you the reason why I phased it out, other than I now believe there are better lines to take. In summary, I usually take the "bet/call a raise on flop then bet out on the turn" line to mean that the person's hand improved with that turn card (or at least picked up more draw outs).

[captZEEbo1]

[ QUOTE ]
and I hope it is two bets so that I can maximize my value.

[/ QUOTE ]

If it's heads up, that's bad logic. Either your pair is ahead already, or your flush draw outs don't change your pot equity > 50%, if it did, you should have no problem 3-betting him when he raises you, otherwise you should not be HOPING he raises you again. All that means is getting raised isn't tragic, because you have more outs.

[Brom]

I realize this now after playing for a while and gaining experience. I was just stating how my thinking process used to work as a newbie, and possibly how other newbie's may also be justifying the play.

[TJD]

I call this the BFN the "bet from nowhere" and I agree that it does usually indicate a (semi)bluff.

However, if the pot is more than HU, decent players will just as often bet out here if their hand improves to 2 pair + as well. The "typical" player is more likely to try a CR if they get a hand that good.

T

[TJD]

I did once I spotted the pattern. As I said in the original post it was so predictable that when he CR me on the flop, I had no problem at all of raising the turn with middle pair top kicker since I KNEW he did not have top pair.

T

[TJD]

These were exactly the effects it caused until I got a read which is why I asked for others views.

We take the lead with middle pair (not just HU) when the EP checks. We get him plus maybe someone else still in but we are not raised and are probably about to fire again when this BFN (bet from nowhere) appears.

Often this is a semi(bluff) of some sort but it might be a good hand from a player who "knows" that it is normally a bet not to be respected. Since we know nothing of the player we decide to take it calmly and call down to see what is going on and he turns over top pair - wtf?

On a non - drawy board, we may indeed have folded to the EP bet or folded the turn after a CR on the flop.

This slowplay has "maybe" caused us to put more in this pot than we might have done.

However, there are risks with his line as well.

Trevor

[TJD]

[ QUOTE ]
Please define 'indifferent players'.

[/ QUOTE ]

VP$IP between 43.276 and 44.12
PFR% (Wednesday's)in the region of 34.22
AF-Tot (excluding public holidays) of exactly 3.274
WTSD% must NOT be > 103 (very important)

An additional clue is halitosis but that is not an absolute requirement. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Trevor

[kiddo]

My gutfeeling is that people are doing this with a draw and a not 2 good pair (the aggressive ones) or a very strong hand that they didnt want to cr on flop and now they dont want me to check behind (the passive ones). But maybe people are doing it with toppair 2, havent seen it that much.