Bad fold w/flush draw and TP on turn? [Archive]

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hiflyer51

02-28-2005, 03:09 PM

What would you do on the turn in this situation? After showing strength by check raising, and leading on the turn when the board paired, I was raised and reraised and called in another spot. I figured I was drawing dead to a full house , or at least the nut flush draw. Is the pot too big to fold here?

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif. UTG+1 posts a blind of $2.
1 fold, UTG+1 (poster) checks, MP1 raises, 1 fold, CO calls, Button calls, Hero calls, BB calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (12 SB) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (6 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 bets, CO calls, Button calls, Hero raises, BB folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, CO calls, Button calls.

Turn: (11 BB) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif (5 players)
Hero bets, UTG+1 folds, MP1 raises, CO 3-bets, Button calls, Hero folds, MP1 calls.

River: (21 BB) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
MP1 checks, CO bets, Button calls, MP1 calls.

Final Pot: 24 BB

bigmac366

02-28-2005, 03:21 PM

i would cap before i would fold.

Iamafish

02-28-2005, 03:23 PM

id actually check-call the turn. You got 3 bet cause of your first one. Since you bet anyway, I would have called. You have the correct odds, I dont get why you folded.

Then again I wasnt there, but someone could be holding flush draw A high or whatever.

Edit:maybe I would have bet the turn, i dunno.

TMFS9

02-28-2005, 03:24 PM

Without any reads I'm thinking that you did give it up to soon. I would probably lead out on the flop to build a big pot, plus if the preflop raiser raises you can 3 bet it. While the CO could have pocket 3's, pocket q's are really unlikely because you hold one, and only 1 combination of 5's are out, he could easily play something like A5 in this manner. Also another fact thing is even if the CO has pocket 3's you have 2 outs to a higher boat, and I wouldn't be so quick to assume that if the flush gets there it won't hold up.

mr pink

02-28-2005, 03:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hero folds

[/ QUOTE ]

come on man. getting 20 to 2...your flush will be good here a vast majority of the time. and if someone already has filled up, you have 2 queens left in the deck that you could spike for a bigger boat. this fold is really bad. the size of the pot is what makes it correct to draw to the flush here even if you suspect you're beat. you have to be over 90% sure you're beat here and even then it's a bad fold.

meep_42

02-28-2005, 03:47 PM

Lead/3-bet the flop.
Bet/call any on the turn.
Lead/call the river.

-d

QTip

02-28-2005, 03:54 PM

no one talked about a 3-bet PF which would have helped us know a bit more about PF raisers holding...

I probably go with meeps line here..however, without having 3 bet the flop, it's hard to say whether or not to lead the turn. If he capped the flop, I would have check/called...then led the river when my flush fell and called a raise.

meep_42

02-28-2005, 04:06 PM

I don't think you have enough of an equity edge against the field to 3-bet this out of position. KQ could easily be dominated by the PFR or any cold-callers. From the button, I may 3-bet, but from the blinds, I call.

-d

QTip

02-28-2005, 04:10 PM

I don't know about that meep...you know this stuff better than I do, but there's not many other hands I'd rather have than a Big Suited Broadway against a 6-handed field. I'll have to run some rounds in PokerStove.

QTip

02-28-2005, 04:10 PM

Although...granted, being in the SB here does suck.

Sarge85

02-28-2005, 04:20 PM

If you think the CO has a boat, you need to check the action on the flop again.

It much more likely he only has a 5.

Your fold was bad.

Sarge/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

PokerBob

02-28-2005, 04:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
What would you do on the turn in this situation? After showing strength by check raising, and leading on the turn when the board paired, I was raised and reraised and called in another spot. I figured I was drawing dead to a full house , or at least the nut flush draw. Is the pot too big to fold here?

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif. UTG+1 posts a blind of $2.
1 fold, UTG+1 (poster) checks, MP1 raises, 1 fold, CO calls, Button calls, Hero calls, BB calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (12 SB) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (6 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 bets, CO calls, Button calls, Hero raises, BB folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, CO calls, Button calls.

Turn: (11 BB) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif (5 players)
Hero bets, UTG+1 folds, MP1 raises, CO 3-bets, Button calls, Hero folds, MP1 calls.

River: (21 BB) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
MP1 checks, CO bets, Button calls, MP1 calls.

Final Pot: 24 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

First, you need to bet this flop. Yes, MP1 is gonna raise it, but that's OK. The pot is big enough where you don't mind CO and button getting lost.

What the hell does CO have here? IMO no matter what he has he is playing like a total donk (I hope that means dumdum. I am trying some of the cool 2+2 lingo /images/graemlins/grin.gif.) Could he really have 33? Or 55? Or QQ? Or A5o? My guess is A5o with the A /images/graemlins/spade.gif.

You could be drawing dead to MP1's QQ, but that is unlikely. It smells more like AQ or AA-KK to me.
CO has A /images/graemlins/spade.gif5.
Button is dead money.
I think you call and pull out the rosary beads. But maybe I'm nuts.

crunchy1

02-28-2005, 04:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think you have enough of an equity edge against the field to 3-bet this out of position. KQ could easily be dominated by the PFR or any cold-callers. From the button, I may 3-bet, but from the blinds, I call.
-d

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed - I think being able to 3-bet PF makes the hand much easier from that point forward but, it's not the best play when you're going to be first-to-act for the rest of the hand.

With three people in between you and the PF raiser I think you have to lead this flop. If the button was the PF raiser you could check it to him to face the entire rest of the field with two-cold but having MP1, CO and the Button already involved when you raise makes it pretty appetizing for the rest of the field to call 2-cold with all sorts of crap!

Have to cap the turn here. I think the five is much more likely to conterfeit some joker's Q3 that to hurt you with a set. You also have 2 outs to the big-boat and 9 left to the second nut-flush. A cap will tell you where you're at if you don't improve on the river. Better hands may even check behind on the UI river giving you a free showdown with a second best hand. Either way not getting this to showdown is a big mistake in a pot this size.

No you're not going to win every time - but the size of the pot when you win one more than makes up for the losses.

Fat Nicky

02-28-2005, 04:25 PM

bet the flop.

don't fold the turn.

crunchy1

02-28-2005, 04:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
IMO no matter what he has he is playing like a total donk (I hope that means dumdum. I am trying some of the cool 2+2 lingo /images/graemlins/grin.gif.)

[/ QUOTE ]

That's funny [censored]..... I first saw the term "donk" on here today... have I been missing something???

QTip

02-28-2005, 05:26 PM

...yeah...me too...I read it and felt like donk because I didn't know what it meant. Sounds like some cheesy UK term like "bloat"...

hiflyer51

02-28-2005, 06:20 PM

Thanks for all the comments and advise. It certainly looks likd a bad fold. I also agree that I should have led out on the flop as a better way to knock out some players.

TMFS9

02-28-2005, 06:52 PM

Knocking players out is the goal of leading out. The goal is to get as much money in the pot as possible because you have such a strong hand. Also any players that you do knock out generally didn't pose much of a problem for you except possibly a Ax or a lone A /images/graemlins/spade.gif.

hiflyer51

02-28-2005, 09:56 PM

I did completely miss that I had the 2 Q outs for the better boat.

hiflyer51

02-28-2005, 10:05 PM

There was no doubt(in my mind at the time) that a 5 was out for trips, what threw me off was the reraise and the cold call after that. I was thinking possibly 33 and the maybe the nut flush draw. I didnt think at the time that both 5's could be out and 2 people having trips.