6-max?

[Rico Suave]

I have been banging my head against the wall at the party 5/10 full for about 50K hands and I am looking to move on. Its either move up to the 10/20 full, or take a detour to the shorthanded tables.

Many great players on this forum have said that a stop at 6-max games was a key component to the development of their game. My question is why? How, specifically, will the 6-max games improve my game? I have heard the general benefits---learn to play in shorthanded pots, learn to increase your aggression, deal with increased aggression from opponents, blind play, etc......but I felt I got a fair dose of all of these things at the 5/10 full. Am I kidding myself?

I have no desire to become a shorthanded specialist at this point, so the only reason to play the shorthanded games make my game more complete. Anyone want to take the time to explain to me why a stint at 6-max is critical to my advancement? Or why skipping it would be perfectly reasonable?

Thanks.

--Rico

[Altaslim]

Standard Disclaimer: I'm not one of the more accomplished posters on the HUSH forum. However, I do have 42K hands at 5/10 6max.

If you are looking to play SH just to improve your game I suggest playing 1/2 6max. The swings at these shorthanded tables can be brutal so without knowing the size of your bankroll or your tolerance for risk this may be the safest way to gain exposure to shorthanded play. It's not uncommon to experience swings over one or two sessions that are in excess of 100BB due to the nature of the game. You are involved in more pots...these pots are played more aggressively...if you miss a couple of them in a row that can be a major downturn.

Of course, this can work the opposite way and the upswings are great. I also believe devoting this time to SH play has helped my live play tremendously. When tables get shorthanded I'm able to shift gears much more easily and take advantage of opponents who are unable to do so.

THe SH game can be VERY addictive...if you do decide to sample it, be careful.

[CostaRicaBill]

I'm in the same boat Rico. My bankroll is plenty big for the 5/10 6max, but everytime I take a shot I have gotten beaten down with bad cards coupled with suboptimal play. I've been successfull playing 10/20 full at other sites and was hoping to just jump into the Party 15/30 when my bankroll is large enough. Has anyone else skipped the 5/10 6max on their way to 15/30?

[Rico Suave]

Altasim:

[ QUOTE ]
If you are looking to play SH just to improve your game I suggest playing 1/2 6max. The swings at these shorthanded tables can be brutal so without knowing the size of your bankroll or your tolerance for risk this may be the safest way to gain exposure to shorthanded play

[/ QUOTE ]

My bankroll is adequate for the 5/10 6-max (assuming I can beat it /images/graemlins/tongue.gif ), but your point about variance is well taken-- and one reason I am not eager to jump into it. In addition, I have seen posts where the adjustments takes some time to make--i think it was Montycantsin who posted a while back that he was pleased that he was finally in the black at the 5/10 6-max after 20K hands--not terribly encouraging. I am just not sure which direction to take....

--Rico

[sthief09]

it's definitely a good learning experience, especially for blind play. if your goal is to play 15/30, then it's good to play against players with loose raising standards. you'll also learn to love isolating the loose idiots, which is important at 15/30.

I think the best part of playing 6-max is it's easy money. the qualit of play at 5/10 is as low as .5/1 at times. you can make 2 or 3 times per hour as much as you made at 5/10 full. it's a great way to build your roll in a hurry

[BusterStacks]

[ QUOTE ]
Standard Disclaimer: I'm not one of the more accomplished posters on the HUSH forum. However, I do have 42K hands at 5/10 6max.

If you are looking to play SH just to improve your game I suggest playing 1/2 6max. The swings at these shorthanded tables can be brutal so without knowing the size of your bankroll or your tolerance for risk this may be the safest way to gain exposure to shorthanded play. It's not uncommon to experience swings over one or two sessions that are in excess of 100BB due to the nature of the game. You are involved in more pots...these pots are played more aggressively...if you miss a couple of them in a row that can be a major downturn.

Of course, this can work the opposite way and the upswings are great. I also believe devoting this time to SH play has helped my live play tremendously. When tables get shorthanded I'm able to shift gears much more easily and take advantage of opponents who are unable to do so.

THe SH game can be VERY addictive...if you do decide to sample it, be careful.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you suppose I can gain the things I would learn from the 5/10-SH game from playing the 1/2-SH? This is really what I'm after, 6max swings make me throw up in my mouth a little bit.

[Altaslim]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you suppose I can gain the things I would learn from the 5/10-SH game from playing the 1/2-SH? This is really what I'm after, 6max swings make me throw up in my mouth a little bit.

[/ QUOTE ]

I haven't played as much 1/2 (only about 13K hands), I usually only play it to clear bonuses. But there are similarities between the games. I think the principles of blind stealing/defending and isolating opponents that sthief mentioned above are the most applicable.

Another issue is dealing with tilt. Enough cannot be said about the swings. You have the frequent opportunity to win or lose at a much faster rate. I experienced a large tilt-aided downswing early at 5/10 6max and it was almost more than I could bear...watching months of work evaporate in a day.

1/2 6max is a softer game than 5/10, but I think any level of SH play will confront you with enough opportunity to go on tilt and dealing with this has made me a much more reliable and capable player.

[ QUOTE ]
I think the best part of playing 6-max is it's easy money. the qualit of play at 5/10 is as low as .5/1 at times. you can make 2 or 3 times per hour as much as you made at 5/10 full. it's a great way to build your roll in a hurry.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed.

[sin808]

Try other sites? Paradise or UB have SH games at other SS limits.

[bdk3clash]

No, 1/2 6max is nothing like 5/10 6max. It's worthwhile to play 5/10 6max. I resisted for a long time but I agree that it's an important stepping stone (hopefully) on the way to 15/30.

[CostaRicaBill]

Any suggestions for picking good 5/10 6max tables? Are the games good during the day?

[sublime]

Any suggestions for picking good 5/10 6max tables?

avoid me

[Rico Suave]

bdk3clash:

So I assume you made the switch? Did you play the 5/10 full before going to the 6-max? If so, how was the play in comparison? What was the biggest adjustment you had to make?

--Rico

[sublime]

rico

you are throwing money away by not playing 5/10 6-max. thats really the bottom line.

as for the 'swings' and aggression levels:

the swings are not as bad as they 'seem', and you get used to them pretty quick.

for play recommendation, i would start off really tight in the blinds and EP and as you get comfortable add some hands in. as a cautionary note, i think most players in the HUSH forum advocate a style that is too loose preflop and too aggressive post flop, so some of the advice you recieve i would ponder on before incorporating into your play.

[Danenania]

[ QUOTE ]
i think most players in the HUSH forum advocate a style that is too loose preflop and too aggressive post flop, so some of the advice you recieve i would ponder on before incorporating into your play.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is partly because many posters play 10/20 and a more lag style works better in this game than in 5/10. Also like you say a tighter style is good while getting used to the games.

[BottlesOf]

You can't know until you go. I was just like you. I really didn't want to move to 6max, but I finally did. Moving to 6max was/is one the most enjoyable, best things for me as a poker player.

I'm a little scurred of the swings too, so I'm staying at 5/10 6m (instead of 10/20) for a Looooooong time.

[BusterStacks]

ugh... I am gearing up for another shot at this SH crap...

[CostaRicaBill]

[ QUOTE ]
ugh... I am gearing up for another shot at this SH crap...

[/ QUOTE ]

Arg, me too dammit. You guys have me all inspired now.

[bdk3clash]

I now play a combo of $3/6 full and $5/10 6max. The play at $5/10 is a lot more passive than I expected, but it's nevertheless a more aggressive game than $3/6 full. It's mostly players who are way too loose and way too passive, with the occasional super-aggressive player in the mix. PlayerView helps a ton as much of the play is player-specific.

I've played a fair amount of the $5/10 full and to me it isn't much like the $5/10 6max--you get mostly the tight multitabler types at $5/10 full that play $3/6. The $5/10 6max seems to draw from an entirely different player base (and a significantly looser one at that.) As far as I can tell $5/10 full is where players that have learned to be tight preflop but don't really want to play any higher or get any better end up.

Biggest adjustment initially was the realization that nearly all of the hands I was playing were coming in for a raise--I open-limp all the time in full games but just don't do it in 6max. The value of position and aggression becomes much more apparent in games where pots are mostly contested heads-up or 3-handed.

There are also some specific plays I make in 6max that I don't tend to make in the $3/6 or $5/10 full games--things like checking behind on the turn in position planning on calling a river bet with Ace-high. In the less-aggressive (and more weak-tight) full games I'm more likely to bet the turn, fold to a check-raise, and check behind on the river. Stuff like this is obviously opponent-dependent, but I seem more likely to run into opponents who take a turn check as a sign to bet the river no matter what at the $5/10 6max than at the full games.

Similarly, I've had good success with a feign turn checkraise at the 6max games, whereas it whiffs a fair amount at the $3/6 and $5/10 full games.

[Joe826]

6-max is fun. Once you go on a 300 BB slide the other (more common) swings of 100 BB's here and there don't look so bad. This has actually been a big help to me. I don't stress out about losses like I use to.

[Jeff W]

Anyone who does not enjoy shorthanded play should not play the 5/10 6-max. The game will prepare you for 15/30. So will the 5/10 and 10/20 fulls.

If you don't enjoy 6-max, it will be a rough ride. Most people aren't wired for shorthanded poker.

[Monty Cantsin]

Clash, excellent post. I agree with every point you're making here.

There are a lot of LAGs in the game but there are a surprising number of players who play exactly like a typical 3/6 full player. Learning to identify these different types and adjusting against your play to them is key.

I don't think my temperament is naturally suited to the sand-in-the-eyes, knee-in-the-groin action of truly aggro short-handed poker, so I really love tables full of these more passive players. Also, their mistakes are magnified by s/h while the LAGs mistakes are minimized.

As for the original question, 5/10 6max improves your poker game like this: if you can dodge a wrench, you can dodge a ball.

/mc

[sethypooh21]

Many are positing that once you know what you are doing, the swings at 6-max (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=1826139&page=0&view=c ollapsed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1) are actually less then those at full ring. They just seem worse because you get more hands in the same time period.

I think most of us in HUSH find 6-max to be more fun because it feels more like what "playing poker" should feel like, using reads, betting and raising a ton, bluffing a fair few times.

[Rico Suave]

Wow. Thanks for the input guys. I appreciate it.

I have really been looking for reasons to skip / avoid the shorthanded tables....I guess swings, blind play, general laginess, etc. had me scurred. I admit it...I am a wuss.

Nothing left to do but give it a go. Hell, if bdk3clash can do it, surely I can! (j/k /images/graemlins/grin.gif ) Thanks for the help guys.

--Rico

[CostaRicaBill]

Ok, as per the comments made yesterday, I stopped being a wuss and jumped into the 5/10 6max again. I'm happy to say that I finally had a winning session +30BB's and feel a little more comfortable there. I must say that the players are indeed horrible.

Most of the tables were populated with 4 passive players and one super loose aggressive player who played almost %100 of the hands. It was a nice change from the 6 table 3/6 grind.

[ThePenguin]

I tried 6-max for the first time last night and got rocked. I like heads up, and playing against 2-3 opponents, but it seems i havent figured out the six-max game yet.

[turnipmonster]

[ QUOTE ]

Do you suppose I can gain the things I would learn from the 5/10-SH game from playing the 1/2-SH? This is really what I'm after, 6max swings make me throw up in my mouth a little bit.

[/ QUOTE ]

if 6 max swings make you throw up, I would go ahead and plan on never moving past party 3/6.

--turnipmonster

[turnipmonster]

I can say that personally nothing has improved my limit game more than learning to beat the 6max. stealing, defending, isolating, as well as countless lines to take.

also, if you want to move up it's important to recognize that mid limit games are more aggressive, and 5/10 is an easy way to learn to start to deal with that aggression, especially since it pales in comparison to the 10/20 in terms of AF.

--turnipmonster

[ISF]

I decided to stop off at the 5/10 six max games a month ago before I head to the 15 game and I highly reccomend it. Not only will it improve your play in sh pots greatly, but the play at the 5/10 game is as bad as the 2/4 maybe worse. These games are fun and much much much more profitable then the 5/10 full.

[James282]

Aggressive shorthanded games are a key part of any players development. It will help you loosen up and it will get you used to play in Heads up and shorthanded situations against tough players - skills you will need if you plan on keeping your head above water once you get to the 15/30 on party and other big games. It is almost impossible that you have gained these skills by competing in the weak-tight games that are the Party 5/10 full and below.
-James

[bdk3clash]

"Hell, if bdk3clash can do it, surely I can!"

Thanks?

[Rico Suave]

bdk3clash:

[ QUOTE ]
"Hell, if bdk3clash can do it, surely I can!"

Thanks?

[/ QUOTE ]

I was completely kidding. You seem to get a lot of crap from everyone else on the boards, so I thought I would pile on.

--Rico

[bicyclekick]

[ QUOTE ]
...learn to play in shorthanded pots, learn to increase your aggression, deal with increased aggression from opponents, blind play, etc......but I felt I got a fair dose of all of these things at the 5/10 full. Am I kidding myself?


[/ QUOTE ]

5/10 full is not like the polar opposite of 6max. I haven't really played the 5/10, so I'm only speaking of the 10/20...but still. 6max is good skills and I learned them too late in my pokre playing career. I wish I would have earlier

[BradL]

[ QUOTE ]
I learned them too late in my pokre playing career.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your in college right? doesnt sound like too late to me...

-Brad

[bicyclekick]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I learned them too late in my pokre playing career.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your in college right?


[/ QUOTE ]

Right. I'll be graduating this spring though.

[ QUOTE ]

doesnt sound like too late to me...


[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't learn it until after I had put in over 100k 15/30 hands. I think I would have done one step better over those frist 100k hands if I would have played 6max at some point. It's not a huge deal, though, I guess. Sometimes I forget I've only been playing about a year and a half...feels like forever...

[Rico Suave]

Thought this was funny..

1st 6-max session last nite

Hands: 240
Results: -66BB
Head phones: Not functioning anymore

I hope you guys are right. /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

--Rico

[Dangergirl]

-66BB is really nothing compared to the swings of 6 max. I just had a -175BB downswing followed by a +350BB upswing. It just happens like that, and it's something you are going to have to get used to if you plan on playing 6 max.