2/4 six seater speculative hand

[invisibleleadsoup]

this was at a 2/4 six seat table on vcpoker
i had only sat down recently,but in general i have a very loose/agressive image,get a lot of people calling me down with middle pairs,underpairs,etc

anyway,i'm UTG +1 with 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

UTG folds,i call,the guy after me calls,the button makes it 20,the blinds fold,i call and so does the guy in the cutoff

the flop is 8 /images/graemlins/club.gif 7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

its checked to the button,who bets 32
i raise him 64,figuring he's probably betting with overcards and because he raised preflop and is in position-he's unlikely to have hit that flop,and even if he has something i have top pair,a straight draw and the initiative after my check raise
basically i'm hoping to take down the pot but its not the end of the world if he does call,especially given that vc players often feel obligated to call a raise on the flop but give up by the time the turn comes...

anyway,he does call,the other guy folds,and the turn is the 4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

i go all in straight away for another 180 dollars,he has roughly the same amount


any comments appreciated,situations like this come up a lot in six seat games i find.

[spoohunter]

Fold preflop, lead the flop, if he calls push the turn, if he raises fold (usually, unless he raises with overs (unlikely!)).

[creedofhubris]

[ QUOTE ]
Fold preflop, lead the flop, if he calls push the turn, if he raises fold (usually, unless he raises with overs (unlikely!)).

[/ QUOTE ]

What he said.

The reason you fold preflop is because you don't want to play a drawing hand out of position for a big pot.

As you played it -- if you're going to check/raise the flop, you need to check/raise bigger, opponent might call you here with two overs. I think leading out is the better play though.

The all-in on the turn is a nice play.

[SpaceAce]

If you're going to check-raise the flop, check-raise bigger. I like the turn all-in. Even if you're behind, you have amountain of likely outs and a chance of folding out a better hand.

SpaceAce

[Rococo]

I will be the voice of dissent. I play a lot of SH NL and I think that this hand highlights the enormous differences between SH and full ring.

In a SH game, the blinds come around so quickly that you can't afford to routinely fold hands like suited 89. On the other hand, you can't routinely play these sorts of hands full ring style (i.e. pray for a big flop and give up if you don't get it). This is a long way of saying that I would raise this hand 60-70% of the time preflop if I decide to play, especially if I have tight players behind. This is obviously a better strategy in the CO or on the button, but it can even be effective against weak players from UTG +1.

As for this specific hand, I don't like the flop min raise because it usually will not fold out overcards. I would raise more to try and take it down right there.

I also am dubious about pushing the turn after the flop min-raise. It seems like an odd line for someone with a 6 or a set. My guess is that a thinking player will read you for a draw (maybe with a pair as well) and make the optimal decision.

[invisibleleadsoup]

sorry,i probably didnt make myself clear
i didnt minraise on the flop,i raised it 64 to 96,so the raise was twice his original bet
anyway,thanks for all the advice so far...

[Stork]

*semi- hijack*

Hey all, I don't normally post here because no-limit is not my main game, although I'm getting more interested in it. Anyway, I was sort of suprised that everyone says 98s is a fold UTG. Is that only true for tough or upper limit games? Or only for very aggressive games? I would think that decent suited connectors would be fine to limp in any position assuming reasonable stacks behind. Do you guys fold T9s too?

[invisibleleadsoup]

yeah in standard,basic full ring game strategy you'd normally fold 98s and 109s except maybe in late position
a lot of people would fold it in late position too,or maybe call 1/4 of the time or so

[TheWorstPlayer]

People don't like suited connectors out of position because drawing can be very expensive in NL, which is very different from limit where draws are relatively cheap to play. When you have position, you can know what the price will be to draw and you can also more easily affect the size of the pot after you hit your hand. When your opponent has position, it is easier for him to make you pay too much for your draw and harder for you to make him pay when it hits.

[Blackjack]

The better you are of course, the more likely you are to play one of these suckers UTG for a raise (deception purposes). I don't think it gets this advanced until you play a game regularly with the same people all the time.

Like the Stars 5/10 or 10/20 or the UB 10/25 or 25/50

[kagame]

beating vc/doyles/pp poker doesnt exactly require a high amount of deception, sadly