First post: Be gentle.. AK hand in a 10+1

[gr8vertical]

basically im wondering how to play this. Should I have even called his re-raise? I was just hoping that small bet would get him to fold...

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Hero (t1570)
BB (t2475)
UTG (t905)
MP1 (t805)
MP2 (t630)
CO (t930)
Button (t685)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP2 calls t30, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t85</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP2 calls t55.

Flop: (t200) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t95</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises to t190</font>, Hero calls t95.

Turn: (t580) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, Hero folds.

Final Pot: t580

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
No showdown. MP2 wins t580. </font>

[gr8vertical]

I guess it doesnt show it, but the guy went all in on the turn

[ReDeYES88]

Your PF bet is too weak. Since you chose to raise here, it should have been somewhere in the neighborhood of t120 or so (3xBB + 1 limp).

As for the flop bet, since you chose to raise it should have been at LEAST 3/4 of the pot or so. You bet less than half. Too weak.

Someone with a strong hand (which you are trying to represent), would have bet strong to try to push out any flush or straight draws. Your bet actually looks like YOU are the one on the draw.

As for getting out when you did, nice fold. No reason to chase anymore with AKo

[gr8vertical]

[ QUOTE ]
Your PF bet is too weak. Since you chose to raise here, it should have been somewhere in the neighborhood of t120 or so (3xBB + 1 limp).

As for the flop bet, since you chose to raise it should have been at LEAST 3/4 of the pot or so. You bet less than half. Too weak.

Someone with a strong hand (which you are trying to represent), would have bet strong to try to push out any flush or straight draws. Your bet actually looks like YOU are the one on the draw.

As for getting out when you did, nice fold. No reason to chase anymore with AKo

[/ QUOTE ]

noted, thanks for the response.

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]

Your PF bet is too weak. Since you chose to raise here, it should have been somewhere in the neighborhood of t120 or so (3xBB + 1 limp).


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think it's necessarily too weak. He's raising for value but not letting himself get into a footrace with a pp.

[ QUOTE ]

As for the flop bet, since you chose to raise it should have been at LEAST 3/4 of the pot or so. You bet less than half. Too weak.


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't like the flop bet either. It does probably need to be stronger or it shouldn't be made at all.

[ QUOTE ]

Someone with a strong hand (which you are trying to represent), would have bet strong to try to push out any flush or straight draws. Your bet actually looks like YOU are the one on the draw.


[/ QUOTE ]

Or that you completely missed the flop but are throwing in a continuation bet (overrated in low buyin SNGs since they don't get respect).

[ QUOTE ]

As for getting out when you did, nice fold. No reason to chase anymore with AKo

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. His raise on the flop gives you such good pot odds you probably need to call as you'll be able to bust him most of the time if an A or K comes up. However, you're right to get away from it after that.

Yugoslav

[Seadood228]

agreed X 5..

Especially about the PF raise. I don't think there's any problem raising this one 2.5-3BBs for value. Raising too much, especially at the lower levels, just builds a pot that will be difficult to play if you don't hit. If you attempt to make a continuation, it'll have to be a good portion of your stack, and in these low limit SNGs you'll never quite know if you are being called with junk or a hand that beats yours. It's just a tough spot to be in.

Your odds of stealing the blinds are usually pretty small, and even if you do it's not a significant amount.

If the blinds were larger, then I could see raising more.. But in this instance, I'd want to raise enough so that nobody gets a cheap flop, but enough that Ax and broadway's come along.

[curtains]

A few notes....first off I would prefer to raise more preflop. When you raise only 55 more, there is almost no chance they will fold while having position on you. Now you are going to be in a situation where 33% of the time you are going to have to play postflop, first to act, while having missed.

A more suitable raise would be about 130-150 IMO. Also I prefer to raise extra when in the blinds, as you usually want the hand to end faster when you don't have position.

I think I've given this same response for many hands in this forum, so forgive me if I become like a broken record.

[curtains]

I understand you don't mind raising smaller in this spot, but I really do prefer to at least give them the oppurtunity to fold. It's not really a footrace if you raise just 40 chips more, yet now there is some reasonable chance they will fold preflop.

[Seadood228]

Everything that you say is correct, and a big raise does give them a better chance to fold, but I'm just wondering how often it will happen at that level. I'm also concerned about players cold calling behind him making the hand even more difficult if he misses.

I have to admit that it's been a while since I played the 10s, but if memory serves me correctly it was pretty difficult to get people to lay down even for 100 more chips. In order to win these pots early, you simply had to show the best hand on the river. I could be wrong though, I have heard that the games have tightened up a bit.

I would just be worried about playing a 300+ chip pot when you're gonna miss 2/3 of the time and might not have position. Those 300+ chips in the middle are going to be pretty enticing, and could lead to more trouble on later streets. If you keep the pot small it will be much easier and less risky to make a continuation bet if you miss, you'll have to risk less of your stack and the pot will be small enough for others to let marginal hands go.

Yeah I know it's weak tight, but IMO the 800 chip starting stacks and rapidly escalating blinds make it less profitable to go for fairly risky blind steals early on.

But against decent competition, or higher buyins, or even deeper stacks, I'd advocate a 3-4BB + 1BB / Limper raise with AK as well.

[curtains]

I dunno, I have watched every hand of poker my sister has played so far (which are lots of $5 thru $22 sit and gos), and they definitely fold sometimes. I'd rather put in 130 and give them a 15%-25% chance to fold as opposed to 85-90 and give them 5% chance to fold.

[voltron87b]

Ouch, this is ugly. First off just complete from the SB. You don't want to be creating a big pot out of position unless you are really confident in your postflop paly, which it doesn't seem like you are.

2nd that flop looks great for your opponent and at low level SNGs a bet of 95 isn't going to put anyone off anything. Especially from out of position. So don't bet into an opponent when the flop likely suits him from out of position.

Don't call his raise with your hand. You have a decent number of outs but no idea that he will pay you off. Don't call a reraise with a drawing hand out of position.

And the worst mistake of all: Why did you not check and see what he had? Unreal. Why? You get free information, and even a chance at winning the hand if he was on a draw? Insane.

[curtains]

btw I think that calling from the SB is okay here too, as opposed to raising. I just think that if you do raise you should raise more.

[voltron87b]

Why raise more?

[curtains]

I already explained in an earlier post why I'd choose to raise more preflop if I did raise.

[voltron87b]

Oh. 120 is good. 85 is bad. Completing is better (at level 1-3). I seriously suggest you try it. People who overplay their hands will absolutely get it dropped on them.

[curtains]

Honestly this is a perfect example of a situation where I don't really think it matters so much what you do, as long as you do it for a good and logical reason.

It's good to understand all the possible plays here and the reasons for making them and to then be able to choose accordingly.

[morgan180]

I don't think the PF raise is too weak here either, you're well within standard raising, and personally I think you probably want a call here. I mean even though you are out of position, playing AK against one opponent is favorable.

The rest of the hand, I think that on the flop you need to throw in a 2/3 or 3/4 pot bet if you want it to be taken seriously. I think the call of the min-raise is fine because you are now getting 95 to 485 which is probably just about right. (i'm too lazy to do the math)

I would put him on AJ/JJ/TT/QQ or maybe something like KQs.

Is anyone else agreeing with me about wanting a call PF?

[curtains]

I'm totally fine with winning the pot preflop.

[morgan180]

[ QUOTE ]

I'm totally fine with winning the pot preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, I agree 100% with that thought and so would I, I was just wondering if anyone is REALLY NOT wanting a call here. I would be fine not getting a call, but do I really MIND it?

[curtains]

No but I'd rather give them the choice to fold. I just don't like to make raises that are going to be called 100% of the time, so early in a sit and go.
Obviously this isn't a universal statement, as sometimes I really want people to call, but most of the time early in the event, I want to charge them.

[morgan180]

[ QUOTE ]
I just don't like to make raises that are going to be called 100% of the time

[/ QUOTE ]

good point. if you're going to price them in do it with AA other than that make them make a real decision.

[Seadood228]

good points.. I concede /images/graemlins/smile.gif

but I'll still raise the same /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[stripsqueez]

i raise more pre-flop - i want the limper to have a problem

i bet a bit more on the flop - i probably fold if it comes back to me - i have outs if i am behind but the backdoor flush isnt an attractive draw because it may cost me a lot more - the overcards might be dirty and expensive - and my stack is reaching critical mass

stripsqueez - chickenhawk