Comfort me

[jason_t]

Second hand at table; no previous reads.

This one was tough and almost surely misplayed on every street but preflop.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif. CO posts a blind of $2.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO (poster) checks, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, UTG+1 folds, MP2 calls, CO folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, BB folds, <font color="#CC3333">UTG caps</font>, MP2 calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (9.50 BB) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG calls, MP2 folds.

River: (11.50 BB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 14.50 BB

[partygirluk]

After the flop gets capped I think you are behind 90%+ of the time. I'd slow right down, don't see any reason to bet the turn, and I don't think you have a value bet on the river.

[jason_t]

Check/call turn with my flush draw and two pair/trip outs and fold river UI?

[partygirluk]

Yes, although the pot will be so big on the river that calling won't be that big a mistake I think. Depends if it is heads up.

[einbert]

Is 3-betting this flop SOP? Anyway once it gets capped you have to think you're behind, probably to a set.

I would have check/called the turn, you certainly can't fold to a raise and you want to see the river as cheaply as possible.

The river...well I wouldn't have bet. Either check/call or check/fold. The pot's pretty big but I think you are almost always behind here, I'm probably check/folding.

[jason_t]

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Is 3-betting this flop SOP?

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I don't know; I was hoping someone else would.

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I would have check/called the turn, you certainly can't fold to a raise and you want to see the river as cheaply as possible.

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Turn bluff/semibluff bad?

[partygirluk]

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Is 3-betting this flop SOP?

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I don't know; I was hoping someone else would.

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I would have check/called the turn, you certainly can't fold to a raise and you want to see the river as cheaply as possible.

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Turn bluff/semibluff bad?

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Do you really think you have any folding equity vs. 2 opponents after a capped flop?

[einbert]

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I would have check/called the turn, you certainly can't fold to a raise and you want to see the river as cheaply as possible.

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Turn bluff/semibluff bad?

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Yeah man after he caps the flop he's going to a showdown just about always. Getting raised here sucks hugely because you can't fold so I think check/call is best.

[jason_t]

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Is 3-betting this flop SOP?

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I don't know; I was hoping someone else would

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Any thoughts on the flop play?

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Do you really think you have any folding equity vs. 2 opponents after a capped flop?

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I thought I had some; I was just as much an aggressor on the flop as UTG. And I wasn't concerned with MP2 since he seemed to just be along for the ride.

[einbert]

Well the thing about the flop 3-bet is if UTG caps you're pretty much drawing. So I think the information you get from it allows you to check the turn without worrying about giving a worse hand a free card, and in fact if you hadn't picked up the FD on the turn then folding would be correct IMO. Pot's pretty big and you have odds to draw to two pair/trips but you are dead to a set and that's his most likely hand once he caps the flop (or some stupid straight and you're dead to that too). However, you're really not getting anyone to fold here (MP2 is seeing the turn card for sure) and you're increasing the chance MP2 will see the river if he has a gutshot by bloating the pot. But if you don't 3-bet the flop you probably should bet the turn (so as to avoid giving a free card) but you really don't want to be raised on the turn since you picked up your second nut flush draw. But we don't know you picked up the flush draw so we are pretty much betting the turn if we don't 3-bet the flop. Because our pair is so low we sure can't give free cards esp. since the pot is fairly large now.

So I think the 3-bet is probably for the best, but you have to use the information it bought you and not bet the turn.

[bernie]

Flop: I'd just call the raise.

Turn: You're not folding the UTG, so the question is, is this a value bet? Who knows what MP is calling with. You may have 14 outs. You'd be just below even money in a best case situation given the play. I'd check call. However, given how you played your hand on the flop, a case might be made that you're representing a str8. Which could stop the UTG.

River: UTGs river raise is kind of odd, don't you think? What is he representing here that he chose not to represent on the turn? I don't think a worse hand is calling here, I'd think about check calling. *Player depending.

I think I'd have called the river just out of curiousity of what he'd play this way. What? He had A4 and wanted to wait til the flush draw missed to make sure his hand was likely good and safe to raise?

*On UB, I get alot of guys who will bet on the end when checked to with virtually nothing. It may be different on party.

b

[jason_t]

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So I think the 3-bet is probably for the best, but you have to use the information it bought you and not bet the turn.

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Excellent point. Thank you.

[bernie]

Don't you think the river raise by UTG is a little odd given how he played the turn?

b

[jason_t]

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Don't you think the river raise by UTG is a little odd given how he played the turn?

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Yes, I did and that the part of the hand I am most bothered by.

[einbert]

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Don't you think the river raise by UTG is a little odd given how he played the turn?

b

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Yeah I think it's really bizarre. I would want so bad to see what he had that he would play that way, but I still think calling is -EV in terms of actually winning the showdown X% of the time.

[bernie]

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but I still think calling is -EV in terms of actually winning the showdown X% of the time.


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I'd easily pay 1BB for the info. Never underestimate the value of information. I would expect to lose, but I want to see this hand. This will help you make better EV decisions against this player later on in the session that could far outweigh the 1BB cost.

How can the Q help him? Especially given how the poster played his hand. If he's that aggressive, he'd likely have raised QQ preflop.

b

[bernie]

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Yes, I did and that the part of the hand I am most bothered by.

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I keep wanting to anticipate seeing the results and what he had. /images/graemlins/frown.gif /images/graemlins/crazy.gif So much so, that I know I'd have called. It looks like a desperation raise on the end. Even if it could be with a better hand. You have some showdown value on this hand. The raise is just too weird.

b

[bernie]

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although the pot will be so big on the river that calling won't be that big a mistake I think

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Add to that the river raise by UTG is very strange given how the hand played out.

b

[jason_t]

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Flop: I'd just call the raise.

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What's so bad about 3-betting the flop?

[PokerBob]

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Is 3-betting this flop SOP?

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Overcards will raise this flop often, so I don't think the 3-bet is bad.

[Nick C]

I think the flop 3-bet is all right. UTG's raise doesn't convince me you're behind (he might raise with, just as two examples, 76 and A5), and your hand, if best, is very vulnerable. I think facing BB with two cold has some value.

However, once UTG caps, I do start thinking you're behind. I'm starting to wonder if he has an overpair or flopped a set. I'm wondering about 65, too.

But you do have your flush draw. I think I'd let UTG keep the initiative he took with the flop cap and check-call.

After I check-called the turn, I'd probably either check-call or check-fold the river.

The actual river is kind of odd. I guess maybe UTG decided on the river that he wasn't scared you had a straight after all. (It's also possible he was worried MP2 had turned a straight and was concerned on the turn about it getting 3-bet behind him.) Or -- who knows? -- maybe UTG had 44 and decided to start slowplaying on the turn once he had actually made his hand.

[jason_t]

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After I check-called the turn, I'd probably either check-call or check-fold the river.

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If I check/call the turn, which line on this river do you lean towards?

[Nick C]

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After I check-called the turn, I'd probably either check-call or check-fold the river.

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If I check/call the turn, which line on this river do you lean towards?

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The reason I didn't say is that I couldn't decide.

I suspect check-folding is best. Since I'm new at the table, though, and I don't know UTG, I'd be tempted to call, hoping to discover he's the table LAG.

Make the pot a little smaller, and I wouldn't be as tempted. But, in fact, given the actual pot size and my lack of knowledge about UTG, I think I would call.