worst ruling ever

[Boris]

Here's another hand from my little Commerce vacation.

A has 3-6 of diamonds. B has A-2 diamonds. 3 bets on the flop.

The flop is Ac-Kd-3d. Player A check raises on the turn. The river is the 8d. The players go 5 bets on the river.

The Floor says the Commerce rule is that the hand never happened and all players get their money back. Uggh.

[lighterjobs]

what? why?

[Dynasty]

That sounds like the right ruling to me. It's the standard in Vegas.

An exception could be made if the guy with the 3d knew he had a duplicate card in his hand. But, I'd only do that at higher limits and only if I were 100% sure.

[lighterjobs]

oh, okay. didn't read it thoroughly.

[snakehead]

which floorman made that ruling? the commerce rulebook clearly states that a player who acts on a fouled hand forfeits all money he put into the pot.

[imported_stealthcow]

what are you supposedto do if you are dealt a card that is also on teh flop? turn your hand faceup?/ ask for a redeal?

stealthcow-

[Voltron87]

I think so. If you have the Ad and the Ad is on the flop, you should tell the dealer since you're not able to claim that pot, since you knew the deck was illegitimate. Unless you claim you didn't know, etc, gray area. I assume if the deck is duplicate everyone gets their money back. Or they should.

[andyfox]

Yes, turn your hand face up; the deck is fouled. If you act on your hand knowing this, you're cheating.

[Boris]

I can't remember his name. He runs the lower limit games (60-120 and down) in the top section during the daytime. He has dark hair that is slicked back and a moustache. Other than this incident he seems like a nice guy.

[Boris]

How many players that play 40-80 and higher go 5 bets on the river with a 6 high flush?

[andyfox]

Marcel? Very nice guy, but the parking attendants know more about the rules than he does.

[Rick Nebiolo]

[ QUOTE ]
which floorman made that ruling? the commerce rulebook clearly states that a player who acts on a fouled hand forfeits all money he put into the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here is the exact wording of the rule (taken from page 11 of the undated rulebook with the blue-green cover and the picture of the current casino hotel on the back - I think this is the latest).

64. If a card of a different back color or two cards of the same rank and suit appear during a hand, all action is void and all money in the pot is returned to the players involved. However, if a player deliberately bets a fouled hand, that hand is dead and the player relinquishes all claims to the pot. The pot is then awarded to the best hand among the remaining players. If an irregular card is discovered in the stub, all action stands.

In this case it appears the player knew he had a fouled hand and was deliberately trying to bet others out, but it certainly isn't 100% clear (the lead post is also missing a bit of information regarding the turn card).

OTOH, I've seen a case in a Commerce yellow chip game where a recreational player had something like 9/images/graemlins/club.gif 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif and the flop comes 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif 2/images/graemlins/club.gif. The player played his hand in a normal manner for flopping a set without looking back to his cards. When his hand was tabled the duplicate card was noticed and the floor ruled he forfeited everything to the lone remaining player. Most of us believed it was an innocent mistake (had he had two red nines, it wouldn't appear to be so innocent) and felt sick inside when the ruling was made.

~ Rick

[Klepton]

i posted the hand a little more in detail in the BM section, not knowing it was here...but in my opinion it looked like the asian guy in this hand might have beena regular, and thw hite guy complaining looked like a tourist...

a remember el diablo saying something about commerce favoring regulars pretty often...maybe that's why he did it

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
How many players that play 40-80 and higher go 5 bets on the river with a 6 high flush?

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you suggesting he went 5 bets because he knew he had a duplicate card? What is the value in that? Did he plan to point out the duplicate card if he had a losing hand? Even if you don't know the rules, almost anybody's instinct would tell them that's not going to work.

It seems going 5 bets on the river isn't correlated with having a duplicate card.

[Patrick del Poker Grande]

[ QUOTE ]
It seems going 5 bets on the river isn't correlated with having a duplicate card.

[/ QUOTE ]
It is if you think you can bet someone off the pot and not have to show your cards and get busted for having a duplicate - plus then knowing that there's one more 3 and one more diamond available in the deck.

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It seems going 5 bets on the river isn't correlated with having a duplicate card.

[/ QUOTE ]
It is if you think you can bet someone off the pot

[/ QUOTE ]

You're not going to bet someone off the pot who has already made it 4 bets on the river.

[AceHigh]

[ QUOTE ]
What is the value in that?

[/ QUOTE ]

He knows the pot will be split at worst, so he hopes his opponent has less than the nuts and folds at some point.

[MMMMMM]

[ QUOTE ]
64. If a card of a different back color or two cards of the same rank and suit appear during a hand, all action is void and all money in the pot is returned to the players involved. However, if a player deliberately bets a fouled hand, that hand is dead and the player relinquishes all claims to the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is a terrible rule because it requires the floor to be able to read the mind of the player.

If the floor were that good at reading minds, they would be playing in the $4000-$8000 game and winning all the money, not making rulings;-)

[MMMMMM]

What the controversy in this sub-thread shows is that it is a terrible rule to begin with (the part requiring the floor to determine if the player did it "deliberately" or not).

[Boris]

[ QUOTE ]
Are you suggesting he went 5 bets because he knew he had a duplicate card? What is the value in that?

[/ QUOTE ]

C'mon Dynasty, you're being stubborn here.

[Boris]

The 3-6 of diamonds guy did look like a regular. The white guy was no tourist. He was a true poker veteran in every sense of word. Both of the players in the hand were stuck pretty good so it's not surprising that the 3-6 guy shot an angle and the white guy went ballistic. A higher up was eventually called down the floor. I racked up and left after the incident but as I was leaving the white guy told me the decision was going to be reversed and he would be awarded the pot. I didn't stick around to see who was going to spring for the money. It was a pretty big pot and it was 40-80, not 30-60 like you said in your post.

[Patrick del Poker Grande]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It seems going 5 bets on the river isn't correlated with having a duplicate card.

[/ QUOTE ]
It is if you think you can bet someone off the pot

[/ QUOTE ]

You're not going to bet someone off the pot who has already made it 4 bets on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]
If you're desperate to not get caught, you might try it anyway.

[Luv2DriveTT]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, turn your hand face up; the deck is fouled. If you act on your hand knowing this, you're cheating.

[/ QUOTE ]

I turned my hand face up once when I noticed the King of Hearts was marked (finger nail in the correct position, it was obvious). My hand was ruled dead, and I lost all my bets invested (pre-flop only). I later found out the correct action would have been to stop the action and call the floor to discuss the problem in private. If I had done that it would have been ruled a miss-deal, with a new setup brought out for the next hand.

With that experiance under my belt, I would now advise calling the floor if this scenario ever happened to me, its safer than what you advise Andy.

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[andyfox]

Great avatar.

The two situations are different. In the posted hand, the deck is fouled because there are more than fifty-two cards in it, or the incorrect fifty-two cards. In your case, a card was marked. With a marked card, if I'm in a pot, I will play on and notify the dealer of the marked card after I am out of the action.

There may be some locales where calling the floor is the safest thing to do. Commerce is not one of them, since the floor personnel are not terribly competent. The safest thing is to know the rules oneself.

[Daliman]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What is the value in that?

[/ QUOTE ]

He knows the pot will be split at worst, so he hopes his opponent has less than the nuts and folds at some point.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would think the same. I would be wrong, of course, but I would think the same.

[Ray Zee]

no one should ever have to forfeit their chips for the ineptitutde of the casino. if the deck isnt right they are at fault. you are paying them to protect you from cheaters that switch cards and from mistakes by the dealers and floormen. so the incorrect deck is their fault. and with cameras they can find out when it happened and take corrective action.
by the same token if you do obviously play in such a way as you knew the deck was fouled you should lose your chips as you took a free shot at the pot.
plan ahead on what to say if you should ever get caught in this spot. the floor will rule fo the local or what ever is easiest to get him out of the situation. so know what to say.

[Boris]

[ QUOTE ]
the floor will rule fo the local or what ever is easiest to get him out of the situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

you are correct as usual. although the guy with nuts screamed bloody murder and eventually got the ruling overturned.