To Internet Players: PLAY IN CASINOS!!!

[lehighguy]

I used to play exclusively on the internet. All the math based reasons (more hands per hour, less expenses) made me so anti-casino I didn't go for a long time. However, there are two really important reasons you should play B+M:

1) It's fun, online is a grind.
2) IT WILL IMPROVE YOUR GAME. Something about playing live burns the experience into your head. You can't just move onto the next hand. You remeber each intimate detail of the hand and what went right and wrong. It will improve your online play (especially NL).

[Reef]

4/8 live is also like party 50 cent.

[URMeowed]

[ QUOTE ]
1) It's fun, online is a grind.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yes live poker is fun but live is more of a grind than online. Plus I can meow freely in cyberspace whereas at the Bellagio, i get persecuted for scratching the felt, leaving fur in the chairs and accidentally poking holes in the cards with my paws.

Meow.

[sublime]

4/8 live is also like party 50 cent.

so is 10/20

[deacsoft]

We've known this now for some 30 odd years.

The great equalizer is the fact that you can still play many many more hands on-line which equals more profit.

[bholdr]

i am an exclusivly internet player (thoug i do play home games, but only for shts and giggles) and i have recently started a B+M bakrol so i can branch out. I aggree completly.

also thinking about BJ counting...

[Yobz]

I played at the Borgata 6/12 in late last December and it was *WAY* easier than the .5/1 tables, and more fun. Plus I actually go to use a read (only one though, reads are pretty useless because even if a person shows a read saying they have a good hand chances are they can't read the board and have the nut low).

[StacysMom]

I wish I could play live... but the pace is soo slow, that i turn into a GIAAANT LAG. and piss away hard earned online grinding $'s. anyone else have this problem?

[lehighguy]

Yeah but there are alot of people like me that never thought of going to a casino. For limit, it wasn't nearly as educational as NL. It has improved my NL tenfold.

[bonanz]

a lot of poeple who post here are underage and unable to play in a lot of cardrooms as of yet.

[Mobed]

Hard for me to break even live. I live 4hr from AC so I get hit for about 20$ in tolls, 50 dollar room (per night), food, and if I bring the wife "forget about it!" I play live for fun not for the money, I play PP for money not for fun! If i lived closer to a card room it might be diffrent.

This is of course lower limit games.

[daryn]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In risposta di:</font><hr />

also thinking about BJ counting...

[/ QUOTE ]

this is even more of a grind than poker.

[toss]

And the swings can be ridiculous.

[Blackjack]

Hahahahah Blackjack Counting.

Wait.. Hold it.

Hahahahaha Blackjack counting.

The BR you need is SOOOOO high due to the huge swings you will experience in blackjack. It's not as easy as HEY I know how to count. When you're sitting at a live table with cards flying at you a mile a minute, it's easy to [censored] up.

Say you're implementing a 1-5 bet spread, you easily need at least 2000 bets of your maximum bet to reduce your risk of ruin.

At 100 hands an hour, you'd need to be betting at least 100$ a hand... like a 40-200 spread to be making anything even remotely worth it.

Forget about it kid. It's not as easy as Bringing Down The House says it is.

Blackjack

[deacsoft]

[ QUOTE ]
If i lived closer to a card room it might be diffrent.


[/ QUOTE ]

Forget it. It takes me seven minutes from garage to parking spot for me to get to my local B&amp;M. It's still massive -EV as far as casino vs on-line. I love playing live. It is tons of fun, but nearly impossible to grind out decent dollars in low stakes games regularly. Of course, because I play for a living my point of view maybe skewed here. I've only been there twice in the last 3-4 months. Living closer doesn't change anything (at least for me).

[octop]

The swings are larger in BJ
I still do it occasionally and once you get it down you rarely [censored] up

[RollaJ]

As deacsoft said......
Live is usually a lot of fun, but there is no way you can make as much money live as online.
Higher rake
Commute
Lodging
Tips
Only one table at a time
No Bonii

[frank_iii]

Try on a cruise ship. I played $5/$10 last week and was amazed. We probably *averaged* 7 to the flop and 4 or 5 at showdown.

Plus, you have the added benefit of knowing that the cards aren't fixed. Coming back this weekend to party $2/$4 and having sets and TPTK repeatedly beaten by runner runner full house and runner runner inside straights gets old. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

The only problem was the smoke. Gah, the smoke.

[bonanz]

[ QUOTE ]
Plus, you have the added benefit of knowing that the cards aren't fixed.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol

[OldLearner]

1) 25 hands/hr (if your lucky)

- Dealer must shuffle, collect bets, split pots, deal, wake up old Mr. Brown who sat there for 30 secs without realizing it was his turn to play again

2) Table Selection

- Put your name on the list. Wait an hour to get in the game full of rocks waiting to move to the table full of fish.
- Get seated to the left of the guy who caps any 2 blind. He also likes a good cigar after his Garlic ribs/Caesar salad and believes you are hard of hearing when the truth is you are ignoring him and trying hard not to breathe too much.

3) Opportunity to associate with some people you normally wouldn't give the time of day to.

- Like my cigar smoking friend from 2) or some of the wealthy dope-peddlars who used to frequent many of the games I played in

4) Multi-tabling

- No

And the list goes on.

I played B&amp;M (Clubs, casinos) for 20 years. For those who have never played B&amp;M, it may be worth the experience.

Personally, except for Vegas, I don't care if I ever play in one again.

Online,

1) 100+ hands/hr (6 max)

- I do believe that B&amp;M games are softer than online, but this more than makes up for that.

2) Table Selection

- there are always 20 games with an open seat (at the limits I play)
- annoying people can be nullified by turning their chat off or by changing tables, plus you don't have to worry that your going to put their head through a wall and go to jail.

3) Playing with the cigar smoking, garlic rib/caesar salad eater doesn't bother me that much online

4) Multi-tabling

- Hands/hr + multi-tabling. No brainer. We make money by making good decisions. More decisions we get to make = more money.

I'll often sit down at home to play in the evening and find that I don't really have my "A" game tonite. Since I'm at home, I can go flop on the couch, go flop on my wife, take the dog for a walk, play StarCraft.

If I've driven to the casino and waited for an hour to get on a table, I will feel compelled to play even though I may not have my "A" game. I may have to sit next to someone who, given the choice, I would never sit down beside, yet I will spend 3 or 4 hours in this person's company.

Don't get me wrong. There are a lot of really nice people that I have played live with. Unfortunately, there are a LOT of degenerates in the gambling community and I really don't miss having to associate with those types.

Also, as far as "reading" people goes, that is completely overrated in live games. If you play live with me, I am feeding you reverse tells all the time. The only reliable reads are the same ones you have online. Betting patterns, history of hands showed, etc..

IMHO, if you play poker to make money, online is the ONLY place to play.

[CountDuckula]

[ QUOTE ]
i am an exclusivly internet player (thoug i do play home games, but only for shts and giggles) and i have recently started a B+M bakrol so i can branch out. I aggree completly.

also thinking about BJ counting...

[/ QUOTE ]

If you can count them, you aren't getting enough.

-Mike

[FredJones888]

the additional hands per hour doesn't make up for the increased difficulty.

If you can beat $5/$10 live and can only beat $2/$4 on the internet, you are going to be working a lot harder on the internet.

[FredJones888]

that is great for people that can play 100+ hands/hr , at multiple tables simultaneously, at meaningfully high limits, and still be a long term winner.

I'm sure that a computer could be programmed to do it, but I'm not at all sure that any human can do that.

I AM sure that a good human can beat one live $10/$20 table at 30 hands per hour.

I will be convinced that the internet is better when all the big pro's stop playing live because online is more profitable for them.

[lehighguy]

I made two points:
1) Fun (ok you picked up on that
2) YOU LEARN MORE AT B+M!
This is the point I'm trying to drill accross. I said in my post online has higher winrate, but in order to IMPROVE YOUR ONLINE GAME I think some B+M can help alot, especially for NL.

[Onaflag]

Well, at least we have a consensus. That's nice. We have determined that the best place to play poker is either online or live. I was starting to wonder where I should play.

Okay....for me, a slightly better than break even online player, I can make more money in bonii and that "slightly better than break even" is significant because of the number of hands.

However, the local B&amp;M is 5 minutes away and you simply cannot find a better Friday night game. 4/8 half kill plays like Party .5/1. That's been said before, but it is worth repeating. B&amp;M players suck. I'm lucky. I live in California where there is always a card room nearby.

So, why not branch out and play a little B&amp;M? It's silly not to if you have easy access to a card room. Online poker may always thrive until the end of time, but just in case it doesn't, I'll be ready to play more B&amp;M. Will you?

Onaflag...........

[beernutz]

[ QUOTE ]
I used to play exclusively on the internet. All the math based reasons (more hands per hour, less expenses) made me so anti-casino I didn't go for a long time. However, there are two really important reasons you should play B+M:

1) It's fun, online is a grind.
2) IT WILL IMPROVE YOUR GAME. Something about playing live burns the experience into your head. You can't just move onto the next hand. You remeber each intimate detail of the hand and what went right and wrong. It will improve your online play (especially NL).

[/ QUOTE ]

3. smoking
4. BO
5. boredom
6. 1 hour drive (each way)
7. must move tables
8. tipping
9. misdeals
10. miscalls
11. angle shooters
12. jackpot drops
13. chat that can't be turned off
14. straddles
15. string bets
16. pokertracker
17. clothing optional
18. nonsensical floor decisions
19. deck changes for luck
20. constant din of slot machines
21. got rake? got rakeback?
22. triple draw lowball (or pick any other obscure game)

I think I'll stick with what I enjoy most, thankyouverymuch.

[deacsoft]

23) Table talk.

[Rudbaeck]

[ QUOTE ]
I will be convinced that the internet is better when all the big pro's stop playing live because online is more profitable for them.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sure live is better, once four-tabling $25/$50nl and/or $200/$400 limit is small stakes to you.

Still, if it's a slow night at the Bellagio most of them would probably be better off leaving a bad $2000/$4000 game and multi some $200/$400 online.

It's fun to play live on occasion. It's just not profitable for most of us, and that probably includes 99% of all live pros as well.

[CORed]

I enjoy live play. I played live before I played on the internet, but I believe that my game has improved more from internet play than from live play. Also, because I live in Colorado, the only games available in casinos are 2-5 spread limit holdem and 5/5 holdem($5 on all streets w/ 2 $5 blinds). The games are usually very soft (sometimes loose passive, occasionally maniacal, and once in awhile loose-passive preflop and weak-tight postflop), but the rake + jackpot drop + tips is brutal at these stakes. If I want higher stakes live games, my options are underground clubs, or drive to Albuquerque (500+ miles). On the internet, I can 4 table Pary 15/30 for probably 30-40 times the hourly rate I can get in Blackhawk.

Also, in the loose passive or loose agressive live games, a medium bad run can last for many hours of play, often extending over several sessions. This can get very frustrating. The time compression of internet play means that bad spells often turn around before a session is over. I believe it is easier for the beginner to see the benefits of tight agressive play online, because of the incresed hands per hour.

[CORed]

[ QUOTE ]
14. straddles

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't want somebody putting more money in the plot blind? I love to get at a table where the idiots are straddling.

[ripped]

I agree. I am going to completly slow down on online play as soon as I move to Windsor. Average 3/6 pots are about $100. Average max buyin 500NL pots are about $450 (5-10 blinds) and the 10/20 game there the average pots are about $250.

Need I say more?

[beernutz]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
14. straddles

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't want somebody putting more money in the plot blind? I love to get at a table where the idiots are straddling.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, I'll give you that one. I prefer to play without them but to each his or her own.

[RollaJ]

[ QUOTE ]
Since I'm at home, I can go flop on the couch, go flop on my wife, take the dog for a walk

[/ QUOTE ] --OldLearner
Quite the romantic arent we /images/graemlins/tongue.gif


[ QUOTE ]
I will be convinced that the internet is better when all the big pro's stop playing live because online is more profitable for them.

[/ QUOTE ] --FredJones888

If they got rid of the income tax you'd see this a lot sooner. Also, the incentive to cheat would be to big at a 4000-8000 game. you could buy a new computer, and a new highspeed internet connection every day to be able to cheat in these games

[TobDog]

[ QUOTE ]
Plus I can meow freely in cyberspace whereas at the Bellagio, i get persecuted for scratching the felt, leaving fur in the chairs and accidentally poking holes in the cards with my paws

[/ QUOTE ]
People translation:

"I like internet cause I can watch porn and spank it while I'm playin', I'd surely get arrested doing that in the top section at Bellagio, of course, they might only give me a time out at Commerce.

[The13atman]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If i lived closer to a card room it might be diffrent.


[/ QUOTE ]

Forget it. It takes me seven minutes from garage to parking spot for me to get to my local B&amp;M. It's still massive -EV as far as casino vs on-line. I love playing live. It is tons of fun, but nearly impossible to grind out decent dollars in low stakes games regularly. Of course, because I play for a living my point of view maybe skewed here. I've only been there twice in the last 3-4 months. Living closer doesn't change anything (at least for me).

[/ QUOTE ]

Wait, where do you play? I thought the closest B&amp;M to Madsion was in Milwaukee. (The only place I've ever played is Oneida in Green Bay)

[deacsoft]

[ QUOTE ]
Wait, where do you play? I thought the closest B&amp;M to Madsion was in Milwaukee. (The only place I've ever played is Oneida in Green Bay)

[/ QUOTE ]

My location is a misleading. I no longer live in Madison, but I love that city and it will always be home to me. I currently live in Shawano (35 minutes West of Green Bay) and my heart still resides in Madison. Hence, the location. I don't play much live anymore but when I do I play at Menominee Bingo and Casino. their website sucks and says little of poker but here's the link (http://www.menomineecasinoresort.com/main.html) anyway.

[Greg J]

The problem with live is that the little green, yellow, orange and red number are not floating over everyone's head. At least not until I've had a LOT of drinks.

Oh yeah, and more rake dude.

[lefty rosen]

In a recent poker book they talked about a low limit 10/20 pro who whacked off because of boredom while he played live...... /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[TobDog]

I dont want his seat when it becomes vacant, "Roll me on the list please!" " I'll take the next one"

[lefty rosen]

Actually its more like could you wash the deck and the seat........ /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Rudbaeck]

[ QUOTE ]
In a recent poker book they talked about a low limit 10/20 pro who whacked off because of boredom while he played live...... /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

A clever psychological play to put his opponents on tilt.

[The13atman]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Wait, where do you play? I thought the closest B&amp;M to Madsion was in Milwaukee. (The only place I've ever played is Oneida in Green Bay)

[/ QUOTE ]

My location is a misleading. I no longer live in Madison, but I love that city and it will always be home to me. I currently live in Shawano (35 minutes West of Green Bay) and my heart still resides in Madison. Hence, the location. I don't play much live anymore but when I do I play at Menominee Bingo and Casino. their website sucks and says little of poker but here's the link (http://www.menomineecasinoresort.com/main.html) anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah. I'm actually from Appleton and just going to school in Madison. How good are the games at Menominee? Are there games going almost nonstop or do they normally stay vacant till say 5 or 6 at night? Have you ever played at Oneida in GB? I was only there once, but the 3/6 game was unbelievably soft. It varied between LPP and LAA but was still very good. And this was from 11:30am-3:30pm on a Tuesday. I can only imagine the Friday and Saturday night games...

PS Sorry for the thread hijack. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[deacsoft]

[ QUOTE ]
Ah. I'm actually from Appleton and just going to school in Madison. How good are the games at Menominee? Are there games going almost nonstop or do they normally stay vacant till say 5 or 6 at night? Have you ever played at Oneida in GB? I was only there once, but the 3/6 game was unbelievably soft. It varied between LPP and LAA but was still very good. And this was from 11:30am-3:30pm on a Tuesday. I can only imagine the Friday and Saturday night games...

PS Sorry for the thread hijack. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

The game there can be very profitable. They are generaly very loose. They used to go all day and all night until Oneida's poker room opened. That cut off almost all of the traffic we got from Green Bay. Now we're luck to have 1 table going through the aternoon and a couple well into the night. Weekends are still good and they have NL multi-table tournaments there that bring a lot of players and some good side games. I played at oneida once and didn't care for it. The game was super soft. I made $153 in 3 hours (3-6 limit) and left. I didn't care for the table having the shuffler in in play in the middle, the dealers were horrible, the chips stuck together, and the other people playing were not much fun at all.

[deacsoft]

[ QUOTE ]
Ah. I'm actually from Appleton and just going to school in Madison. How good are the games at Menominee? Are there games going almost nonstop or do they normally stay vacant till say 5 or 6 at night? Have you ever played at Oneida in GB? I was only there once, but the 3/6 game was unbelievably soft. It varied between LPP and LAA but was still very good. And this was from 11:30am-3:30pm on a Tuesday. I can only imagine the Friday and Saturday night games...

PS Sorry for the thread hijack. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

The game there can be very profitable. They are generaly very loose. They used to go all day and all night until Oneida's poker room opened. That cut off almost all of the traffic we got from Green Bay. Now we're lucky to have 1 table going through the aternoon and a couple well into the night. Weekends are still good and they have NL multi-table tournaments there that bring a lot of players and some good side games. I played at oneida once and didn't care for it. The game was super soft. I made $153 in 3 hours (3-6 limit) and left. I didn't care for the table having the shuffler in in play in the middle, the dealers were horrible, the chips stuck together, and the other people playing were not much fun at all.

[RollaJ]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ah. I'm actually from Appleton and just going to school in Madison. How good are the games at Menominee? Are there games going almost nonstop or do they normally stay vacant till say 5 or 6 at night? Have you ever played at Oneida in GB? I was only there once, but the 3/6 game was unbelievably soft. It varied between LPP and LAA but was still very good. And this was from 11:30am-3:30pm on a Tuesday. I can only imagine the Friday and Saturday night games...

PS Sorry for the thread hijack. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

The game there can be very profitable. They are generaly very loose. They used to go all day and all night until Oneida's poker room opened. That cut off almost all of the traffic we got from Green Bay. Now we're lucky to have 1 table going through the aternoon and a couple well into the night. Weekends are still good and they have NL multi-table tournaments there that bring a lot of players and some good side games. I played at oneida once and didn't care for it. The game was super soft. I made $153 in 3 hours (3-6 limit) and left. I didn't care for the table having the shuffler in in play in the middle, the dealers were horrible, the chips stuck together, and the other people playing were not much fun at all.

[/ QUOTE ]


Ditto

[OldLearner]

[ QUOTE ]


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Since I'm at home, I can go flop on the couch, go flop on my wife, take the dog for a walk


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--OldLearner
Quite the romantic arent we


[/ QUOTE ]

And if she ever reads some of this stuff I'll be flopping on the dog /images/graemlins/grin.gif