40-80 hand #1

[Clarkmeister]

Got a few shorthanded hands to post. Been playing lots of shorthanded and don't feel like I've been at my sharpest.

4 handed. SB is a good full game player, but when shorthanded he gets IMO more than just a little too loose and too aggressive because he thinks "that's how you play shorthanded". That said, he gives me some respect. BB is largely unknown, but also is playing too aggressive. Basically, I'm the tightest and most passive player in the game.

CO folds, I raise on the button with QdQs. SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: Kc Ts 7c. SB checks, BB bets, I raise. SB 3-bets, BB folds, I call.

Turn: 7d. SB bets, I raise, SB calls.

River: 5h. SB checks, I check.

[chio]

i don't see what the turn raise does. given your read on the SB, calling down seems best in this big pot. but i like folding even better than raising.

too loose and too aggressive means he's not folding any king on the turn. if the raise was for value, then why the river check?

[Danenania]

I think I would rather call down since I expect him to bluff on the river if he misses a draw. This also ensures you of a chance to spike a Q on him if he has K7 or KT (or heck, AA).

[arkady]

eh, i like it. You decided that you are going to call down anyway, so might as well raise the turn since there is a good chance he will check the river, thereby giving you a small opportunity to win it right there. I guess the only thing I would be curious about, is there any chance he might fold a really weak K? Or would you *prefer* that he folds something like AT?

[Danenania]

Wouldn't this guy reraise AT preflop?

[Schneids]

I think the turn raise in particular is awesome. Given your tight image I really doubt he threebets you with a draw, it has a small chance of getting a king to fold since you're so tight, and in all likelihood is for value since the guy might be on a draw and realize you are calling down so he therefore would have given up on the riv (since you say he's a decent player and might be capable of making some deductions)... Awesome all around, though shocking to believe you're the tightest and most passive player at the table /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
Wouldn't this guy reraise AT preflop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Very likely, but not quite 100% I think.

[King Yao]

A question I'd ask myself is :
If he is on a draw, does he realize his 3-bet may hurt him more than it helps him?

If he is on a draw, all the benefit of the 3rd player folding goes to the made hand (if he was drawing, he'd have to assume you had a made hand). So if his 3-bet forces the 3rd player to fold, he's not increasing his probability of winning the hand by much, while decreasing the expected future pot size, the combination of which is bad for him and good for the made hand (you). Of course, if he thought the 3rd player was loosey goosey and would still call two raises, that would make that question moot.

There are other factors too, but I think his understanding of this concept is an important key to his chances of having a pair of K's or a draw. If he does understand this concept, then I'd be worried that he's got a K...and then I would not be raising on the Turn. If I was sure he understood this concept, I may even fold the hand on the Turn. If he does NOT understand this concept, then I'd raise on the Turn as you did.

[Danenania]

If I had a good draw in SB's situation I would 3-bet too because the chance to steal the pot on a semi-bluff is worth way more than a little extra value on my draw. And if BB calls that is fine too.

[King Yao]

The way I look at it, from the SB's point of view, if he had a draw, he's seen the original poster raise pre-Flop, and raise on the Flop as well....if I was in that spot, and in bad position, I'm thinking the semi-bluffing value is slim....I don't expect the original poster to fold to the 3-bet on the Flop, and I would be very surprised if he folded on the Turn as well. I think the semi-bluffing value is worth little from that position with a drawing hand.

So if I was the SB with a drawing hand, I wouldn't raise unless I was fairly sure (throwing out a number here - 60%?) that the BB would call 2 bets.

[___1___]

Clarkmeister,

Initially, I think it's really player dependent what to make to the check-3bet by the SB on the flop. Would he really try to shut out the BB with a made hand like KT,K7, or a set? Obviously, he could be 3-betting for value with a big draw like 8c9c.

It looks as if you're unsure whether he's on a draw or has K's (I'm guessing he would have 3bet preflop with AcTc) from the turn/river action.

The 7s are giving you protection from a made hand (KJ, KQ) 3-betting you...as well as getting 2 bb from a draw when you're ahead (also, you can easily fold to a 3bet on the turn).

What do you do if the river is any number of cards completeing a draw (club, A, J, 6, 9) and he bets out?

___1___

[lighterjobs]

[ QUOTE ]
I think I would rather call down since I expect him to bluff on the river if he misses a draw. This also ensures you of a chance to spike a Q on him if he has K7 or KT (or heck, AA).

[/ QUOTE ]

I would call him down on 4th and 5th, but i would probably raise the flop.

[turnipmonster]

I like this line a lot, but I wonder how likely he is to be <jimbrier> overplaying a flush draw heads up out of position </jimbrier>? as long as it's somewhat likely turn/river combo is picture perfect, although there is something to be said for letting him bluff the river. seems very player dependent.

--turnipmonster

[mmcd]

With all this talk about draws and kings, I just wanted to point out that sb could easily have a T in this spot with his line (especially given the draw heavy board).

[Ikke]

If this hand is played live in Vegas (where cap is 5 bets right?) then I see a lot of merit in 4-betting the flop.

The board is draw-heavy so I wouldn't rule out a draw when he 3-bets. He could also have a hand like AT,QT,JT etc which you beat. So, you certainly seem to have to get to showdown, or get more reliable info that you're beat.

In any case, 4-betting should give you all the momentum you need against these hands and hands like top pair to let them check to you, allowing you to often save a SB. Also, 4-betting might allow you to make a good laydown. For instance, if he 5-bets you might very well be able to lay down on the turn (you don't have the Qc).

I think that there are very few players (especially with the image you have) that are stubborn enough to still bet into you with a hand you can beat on the turn after you 4 bet. And that's great, because you're most likely drawing to a two outer when you're behind, so you should be able to fold if he bets the turn as well.

This hand seems like a prime example where extreme flop aggression can define the whole hand and can safe you quite a bit.

Regards

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
4 handed. CO folds, I raise on the button with QdQs. SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: Kc Ts 7c. SB checks, BB bets, I raise. SB 3-bets, BB folds, I call.

Turn: 7d. SB bets, I raise, SB calls.

River: 5h. SB checks, I check.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not at all sure I like how I played this one on any of the 3 postflop streets and I'm still not comfortable with any one line being the superior one. FWIW, he sheepishly rolled over 8c9c for the open ended straight and flush draw on the flop and MHIG.

[djoyce003]

I think you are behind to a king here almost every single time. BB bets out into a preflop raiser, you raise...and SB comes over the top of that? Is he really going to 3 bet a flush draw against only 2 opponents? You are behind a set or a king at least 80% of the time I think.

[TStoneMBD]

cmon... this is standard. seriously though, i like the turn raise obviously. keep doing it until he starts semibluffing 3bets on the turn or calling the turn with a king or 2p and leading the river.

[mmcd]

T!!!!!!!!!

It's 4-handed for christsakes. Given the texture of that flop, I think a T check 3-bets a lot.

[Ulysses]

I've thought quite a bit about this hand and lean towards calling the turn being superior to raising.

[TStoneMBD]

could you share your reasoning diablo?

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
could you share your reasoning diablo?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see him making an extra bet with this raise often.

I see him occassionally being blown off the best hand by exactly the type of draw he was up against.

I see him occassionally getting blown off the second best hand by a better hand without getting a chance to suck out on the river (losing 2 bets instead of winning 3 or more).

There are other scenarios, of course, and I haven't worked out the math, but my hunch is that calling is better.

[Your Mom]

There's no way this guy is folding a K here. Ever.

[jfresh]

i think 4handed, if the guy had an actual hand, he would 3bet you too often on the turn for it to be really profitable. If he had a (monster) draw, like he did, i think he would continue to bet the river. Even if he thinks you are set on calling down, I really don't think JQc, 98c, etc are going to check because its pretty much 0% for him to win.

I think pretty much, raising the turn will open you up to lose more when your behind, and doesn't give you a chance to win more.

[JohnnyF]

FWIW - the SB is a 54% fav on the flop. Add in the fact that he's getting a bet on the end when he makes it and doesn't have to pay off when he misses, I think waiting until the turn is a "blank" is routine once you call the flop bet.

The only time he has a T here, he has a flush draw too (game theory considerations aside).

I like your line.