Cashing out - Is it usually problematic?

[bubbahotep]

Just wondered what others experiences were when trying to cash money out of a poker site back to your neteller account?

I had just deposited money at ultimatebet and wondered how much of a hassle cashing out would be. I made a 25.00 withdrawal and I received this message after 48 hours.

Dear ,

Please be advised that your withdrawal has been subject to a random security verification. We have noticed that you are requesting a withdrawal (#xxx in the amount of $25.00) and this amount is not related to game-play. Upon verification of your account, you have deposited then withdrew immediately without playing.

In order to minimize fraudulent activity, please provide us with an explanation of the circumstances of this activity so we may proceed with your withdrawal request.

Your withdrawal#xxx has been cancelled until we receive your reply.



They canceled my withdrawal. After I sent them an email to explain why I wanted to withdrawal money, they said I had to resubmit the withdrawal and they would process it within 48 hours.

(I should say that my withdrawal occured 24 hours after deposit, and I had played some in that time period, so what they said was incorrect)

So far this has been 4 days since I made my inital attempt to withdrawal.


Have others experiences with withdrawals been, for the most part, troublefree or troublesome?

[Photoc]

There is what you get for trying to launder digital money!!!

lol

[Onaflag]

Did you make a withdrawl before playing? Sounds like this is what triggered the weirdness.

Onaflag...........

[Chris Daddy Cool]

i've never heard of it from ultimiate bet but for the most part i've had no problems with transfers to NETeller on any site except for Interpoker where I've had a huge problem getting past their security check.

[richrf]

I've had some trouble with various sites. Interpoker was the worse so far. I have heard lots of complaints about William Hill and VCPoker. Very good experiences with other sites such as Bodog. So it all depends whether the site is more interested in keeping your money or keeping your good will. If they are in trouble, the money is probably more important. I personally will stay away from Ultimate based upon what you have written. Sounds like they may be having cash flow issues.

[pacman544]

Ive been playing on ub for almost two years. I have never had a problem cashing out. They prolly thought u were trying to launder money or something due to cashing out without play.

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
I personally will stay away from Ultimate based upon what you have written. Sounds like they may be having cash flow issues.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, that's not it at all.

The problem is he didn't play before he tried to withdraw.
ALL online sites will question this.
It raises flags in the system.

Stars and Party are a bit faster, but UB withdrawls have always been some of the fastest I have received.

If this guy had played for an hour or in a SNG, he would have never had this problem.

[richrf]

I would followup with two questions:

1) Does Ulimate make it part of the terms and conditions that each player play for a minimum amount of time in order to withdraw money? If so, where is this written. If not, then they are simply holding onto the money.

2) How can $25 deposit/withdrawal be possibly interpreted as money laundering?

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
I would followup with two questions:

1) Does Ulimate make it part of the terms and conditions that each player play for a minimum amount of time in order to withdraw money? If so, where is this written. If not, then they are simply holding onto the money.

2) How can $25 deposit/withdrawal be possibly interpreted as money laundering?

[/ QUOTE ]

UB is not alone in this practice. The amount of money involved is not significant to the computer system which raises the flag. Honestly, it's a weird thing to deposit money and then quickly make a withdrawl without playing. I'm sure they have to review the account transactions to make sure everything is on the square.

I'm sure it's in their terms somewhere. But they don't specify that you have to play at all, or for any set amount of time. It will just allude to the fact that they have the right to check out stuff like this.
As I said, this is something practiced by all sites.

But is it really a problem?
I don't think so, because I've never deposited money into a site and not played at least a few hands. What would be a legitamate reason for doing so? That's the problem. There aren't that many normal reasons for doing something like this, and the fact that it's $25 doesn't mean much. Obviously, if someone knew UB didn't flag transactions of only $25, they could take advantage of it.

So, as it stands, the big sites in question are just trying to protect themselves. I don't see anything wrong with that. It's not like they refused to give him his money. It's just taking longer than it would have if he had played a few hands. I wouldn't be surprised if Stars handles these types of situations faster than UB, but it can't be by much.

[pzhon]

The problem from UB's perspective is that it is paying fees on the transactions. I believe it pays a fee of 1.9% when you deposit and then withdraw by Neteller. Poker sites usually don't mind absorbing the fees because the rake is much greater. However, they want to discourage people from depositing and withdrawing without playing.

I've never deposited to UB, but I've withdrawn a lot from there with no problems.

You can deposit and then withdraw at PokerStars and Absolute Poker and Party skins, and this makes sense if you want to get a bonus triggered by a deposit, but already have enough money on the site to play for the bonus and you don't want to tie up more money. However, all of these sites have a waiting period before you can withdraw.

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
The problem from UB's perspective is that it is paying fees on the transactions. I believe it pays a fee of 1.9% when you deposit and then withdraw by Neteller.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought they only paid fees on the instacash deposits.
Man, I'm lacking knowledge today.

[ QUOTE ]

You can deposit and then withdraw at PokerStars and Absolute Poker and Party skins

[/ QUOTE ]

I did not know this, but knew about the waiting period.

I stand corrected.

*Learn something new every day*

[richrf]

Hi,

I had a chance to look over the user agreement and it does not specify any minimum playing amount. However it does say that:

1) Whatever UB decides to do, in regards to play and money, is final. The customer has absolutely no recourse.

2) That they are "held harmless" in all respects. Which means you cannot sue them or hold them legally responsible for any of their actions.

Therefore, UB can pretty much do anything it wants to do with my money once it is in their coffers. And since they have demonstrated that they can be pretty heavy handed, I would personally not place any money in their hands. Others of course may choose to take the risk. After all, it is all gambling anyways.

As for depositing and then withdrawing, I have had occasion when I deposited money on a site, and after which I received some further information (e.g. the playing rules or the game types) that made me decide that I did not want to play on the site. $25 is nothing. It has nothing to do with laundering. It just appears to me that UB wants to force a person (possibly a newbie) to play some games and probably lose some money in the process.

Others can do what they want. I will not play on UB because I have zero protection against this type of management behavior.

However, I can recommend sites where I have received very good support such as Absolute and Bodog. Some sites, such as Prima, have a $50 minimum withdrawal policy which I think is excessive for beginners who may not have a large bankroll.

I would be interested in comments from other beginners regarding deposit and withdrawals.

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
1) Whatever UB decides to do, in regards to play and money, is final. The customer has absolutely no recourse.


2) That they are "held harmless" in all respects. Which means you cannot sue them or hold them legally responsible for any of their actions.


[/ QUOTE ]

All of the sites say both of these things, of that I am sure.
So, if you're looking for something better than that, good luck. These are extremely standard TOS entries.

Rich, I don't understand why you view this as heavy handed. It's NOT a big deal. Sites on the Prima network can be much bigger hassle.

Seriously, when should this ever be a problem for 98% of the players out there? I just don't get the concern.
UB is probably the 3rd best site out there (counting Party skins as one site). While their support is lacking, they are a quality site.

[ QUOTE ]
I will not play on UB because I have zero protection against this type of management behavior.

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, I hate to tell you, but all of the sites have very similar policies.

Party TOS (http://www.partypoker.com/about_us/legal_information.html)
Stars TOS (http://www.pokerstars.com/tos.html)
UB TOS (http://www.ultimatebet.com/about-ub/user-agreement.html)
Paradise TOS (http://www.paradisepoker.com/support/terms_conditions.html)
Absolute TOS (http://www.absolutepoker.com/supportUserAgreement.asp)

[richrf]

It would make sense that UB would not want to pay fees and then get no play out of it. If this is the issue then UB should have a stated policy that:

"If someone deposits without play, then they will be charged a 2% withdrawal fee".

I think that this is a fair way to handle it. It is the way I would handle it if I were to run a business (which I have done many times in my past). It is _not_ right to make up new rules on the fly. However, if UB desires to do this, they are fully within their rights within their T&C. And I will simply refrain from playing on their site. There are so many to choose from, I could very easily get by without ever playing on UB and waiting for the next "rule-on-the-fly".

[KaiShin]

Sorry, but you aren't going to find anything different in any other online poker site's TOS. Might as well quit playing online altogether, if you're going to keep your money out of sites that state that they can take any action against their clients. Its what most lawyers call a CYA clause - Cover Your Ass.

[richrf]

I play on sites where I have experienced good customer service, and I avoid sites that have displayed poor customer service and heavy-handed techniques. As I previously mentioned, Bodog has provided excellent service and I am pleased so far with Absolute's. I wish that Crazy did not require the $50 minimum withdrawal - and possibly Prima will change this restriction in the future. For example, Absolute only requires $15 at this time.

[bubbahotep]

I deposited, played for about 2 hours on .01/.02. The next day at about the same time (24 hours later) I requested the withdrawal. I had played, I just didnt play at a level that is raked. Maybe they dont consider .01/.02 "real" play...

[bubbahotep]

They finally did push through the withdrawl. They sent me a somewhat negatively worded message about how they aren't a bank and people shouldnt deposit and withdrawal right away.

Their customer service is lacking, but they did allow the withdrawal to go thought. Just thought I should report that...

It took about 4 or 5 days total.

[BradleyT]

What did you expect, they're a business out to make money. Because all Neteller transactions cost a nominal transaction fee you probably cost them about 10% of your $25 and you gave them 0 action.

[richrf]

Thanks for the update. It is true that they are not a bank. But it is also true that they have no concept of "customer agreements" and good business practices. If they want a minimum rake or play time, then that should be clearly stated. If they do not state it clearly at deposit time, then they are going to have unhappy customers. I judge their business practices as unacceptable and as I said, I will refrain from playing on their site based upon your experiences and their unapologetic manner of handling your claim.

Good luck on other sites! I can highly recommend Absolute which has great freerolls every day though it is lacking the variety of tables that other sites have. They do have low limit play. The Prima sites also have lots of variety and all offer some free deposit to try them out. This includes Crazy, 7Sultans, Royal Vegas, and Poker333. I do have a problem with their $50 minimum withdrawal, but this is compensated by the fact that they are giving free money to play. Poker33 currently offers $16 if you go through PokerAnalysis.

Cya around.

[richrf]

I very much doubt that they are paying 10% since they are a high volume site. My guess is that they are paying similar (or less) than what a vendor would pay for a credit card transaction. Somewhere around 2%, which would be about $1.00 run trip. This is what Interpoker is charging me for a withdrwawal. Only Interpoker got my deposit on completely false promises.

[LazyRobot]

I don't play on Absolute anymore but when I did (and I played micro's there) they had a 50$ mininum withdraw. At the time they had a 15$ deposit, but you could not withdraw unless you had 50.

"Please note that the minimum withdrawal at Absolute Poker is $50."

Did this change and not get updated on their site?

[richrf]

You are right and I stand corrected. The minimum withdrawal is $50. I enjoy playing on many of the sites - but the money thing is always a concern. If a site decides to keep the winnings, for one reason or another, there is no recourse. As the T&C says, their ruling is final and cannot be appealed. Pretty wierd way to do business, but when one gambles, one gambles.

Thanks for the heads-up. I will keep it in mind.

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
The Prima sites also have lots of variety and all offer some free deposit to try them out.

[/ QUOTE ]

What?!!?

Okay rich, you just lost me.

Prima sites are MUCH more heavy handed than UB has ever been.
Ask most people on this site, and they will tell you the same thing.

Prima is always asking you to fax copies of your DL and utility bills outside the country.
How in the hell can that be 'better' than UB's practices?

Prima has locked accounts and taken peoples money for very weird reasons before. I've not had that problem with UB.

Rich, just understand what you are talking about before you say it. It is a well known fact that the Prima network is much more heavy handed than any of the 'big three' (Stars, UB, Party).

You can recommend it all you like, but you just make yourself look silly when you stay stuff like this. If you don't believe me, run searches on 2+2 for stuff like "Prima cashout problems" or something similar. Seriously, I know I've said it already, but it bears repeating. Prima is MUCH more heavy handed than any of those other sites. Their TOS is just the same, too.

As for Absolute, they are okay. But they certainly aren't a better site than any of the big three, IMO. But saying what you did about Absolute makes a lot more sense than your comments about Prima. Actually, if you ask me, Prima isn't even that bad, but there have been far more problems with them than any of the major 3 sites.
I hope you'll trust that's a fact, because it is.

[richrf]

So far, I have only used the free deposit money on Prima sites. I do trust you that there have been more problems reported with Prima than with UB and I will not deposit any of my own money on Prima. Thanks for the heads up.

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
So far, I have only used the free deposit money on Prima sites. I do trust you that there have been more problems reported with Prima than with UB and I will not deposit any of my own money on Prima. Thanks for the heads up.

[/ QUOTE ]

No problem.
I'm just glad you'll listen to a different opinion. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

For the sake of completeness, I do want to mention that not everyone has had problems with the Prima network. In fact, I've heard they are a bit better these days. But I still would never trust them above many other sites.