Question about Discounted outs VS Hidden Outs

[Gutoid]

It seems as if Hidden outs supercede Discounted outs. Hidden Outs are a more "TRUE" outs value. If a Hidden Outs value is greater than a Discounted outs value then one would call an otherwise foldable hand.
QUESTION: Shoudn't I just calculate Hidden Outs then, and just forget about counting Discounted Outs?

[theRealMacoy]

i don't have my poker books on-hands at the moment so take this for what it is....late night brain.....

i think these are two different concepts. discounted outs are when an out that helps you also helps make your opponent a better hand (for this reason you cannot count the outs). For example if you have an open ended straight by the turn but there is a two flush on board. even though you might hit your straight, if the card puts 3 flush (or even worse 4 flush) on the board it hurts you. in contrast to this are hidden outs which actually help your hand. hidden outs are outs that are not obvious but in fact help either win the hand or split the pot. an example would be if you have an A7 in HE up against AQ and the board comes 99K3. if another 9 K or 3 come then, your low kicker no longer matters and you split the pot versus the AQ. If a 7 comes you win.

hope this helps ,
the real macoy

ps.hopefully my memory is correct.....someone else can no doubt tell me if i am way off

[slickterp]

you're right as far as the definitions go. hidden outs are often hard to count b/c you may not know what they are.

[theRealMacoy]

yay!
i agree, hidden outs are hard to figure. it seems unwise to count them as full outs because it assumes you can sufficiently narrow your opponent's range of holdings. This is made near impossible against very loose or inexperienced opponents because you simply cannot narrow down their potential range (they can literally be in the hand with anything). Personally, I take them "under advisement" if I have close decision and I can figure my opponent down to a reasonable range of hands.

if any more experienced players have concrete times of when and how they use hidden outs, it would be great!

RM

[trainslayer]

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i think these are two different concepts. discounted outs are when an out that helps you also helps make your opponent a better hand (for this reason you cannot count the outs).

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you can still count em, they just have to be "discounted." So instead of, say, 5 outs, 2 of em should be only counted as half outs for a total of 4.


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in contrast to this are hidden outs which actually help your hand. hidden outs are outs that are not obvious but in fact help either win the hand or split the pot. an example would be if you have an A7 in HE up against AQ and the board comes 99K3. if another 9 K or 3 come then, your low kicker no longer matters and you split the pot versus the AQ. If a 7 comes you win.

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another ace would also be good because the K would counterfeit the Q kicker. (whether this counts as a hidden out I'm not sure.)



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ps.hopefully my memory is correct.....someone else can no doubt tell me if i am way off

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disclaimer: i'm just learning this stuff myself. (actually just trying to learn.) /images/graemlins/crazy.gif