The World's Best Hand-Reader is a Sore Loser (LC)

[Scotch78]

. . . who also doesn't know a damn thing about pot odds. He proceeded to claim he knew I had JT because I suck and challenge me to heads-up at 10/20. If it weren't for the fact that this was his third cold-call of the session, I might've even thought he was one of you guys.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls, MP calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, Button (TAG) calls, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls, MP calls.

Flop: (12 SB) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, MP checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">TAG bets</font>, SB calls, BB folds, UTG calls, MP folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (8 BB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">TAG bets</font>, SB folds, UTG folds, Hero calls.

River: (10 BB) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, TAG checks.

Final Pot: 10 BB

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
Hero has Th Jh (straight, king high).
TAG has Kc Ts (one pair, kings).
Outcome: Hero wins 10 BB. </font>

Scott

[Chobohoya]

Not that I'm trying to inject content into this or anything, but if his river aggression is less than about 2, I'm betting the river.

[Scotch78]

[ QUOTE ]
Not that I'm trying to inject content into this or anything, but if his river aggression is less than about 2, I'm betting the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you're saying someone needs to be aggressive to bet the river with top pair and a decent kicker heads-up? Don't worry, you didn't any any content /images/graemlins/tongue.gif.

Scott

[Chobohoya]

I plead drunk/hungover.

[naphand]

[ QUOTE ]
I might've even thought he was one of you guys.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
. . . who also doesn't know a damn thing about pot odds.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is a bit harsh, I would guess most posters have a reasonable understanding of pot odds. The tough bit is working out implied odds, effective odds and estimating outs.

Initially I really do not like your call on the flop, you should be betting this as PF aggressor. Is your read he cold-calls hands like Kx or X9? Does he do this with big PP? On second look the pot is giving you immediate odds to pull your ISD for one more bet (and when it is back to you, easy call). On the other hand there are 2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif on the board which taints the Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif. Hmmm...not a great spot but you should pick up a few more bets if you hit. Marginal call (due to 2 suits) but implied odds with so many in are OK. Turn on is easy. But there is no excuse for not betting the River, if he has a K (certainly if KQs, which is a hand he might be justified in cold-calling OTB) he may raise the Q when you bet your AQo...

Betting the flop is probably not worth it as it is multi-way, you are not stealing this pot, check-calling is OK here. Likewise a semi-bluff is unlikely to achieve much on the Turn, so call again, you have additional outs. River I would probably bet. As you are the PF raisor, he might even be justified in checking this behind depending on his read of you (obviously he could suspect KQ, KJ, AK slow-played from your PF raise and calling. It's your bag on this). Most of the time I bet out here, which I think is more profitable as you always secure a nother BB and often get raised by aggro players, worse draws making it or kickered hands etc. plus someplayers put you on a steal and raise you, muhahaha, allowing you to 3-bet. CR the River is always a risky proposition and a lot of players will check this behind against me without at least top 2-pair, depends on your image. I would like to CR the River more, but in most games I am betting for value rather than getting too clever, esp.against just one opponent.

[Jeff W]

This is a scary board. There is no reason to get tricky on the river.

[mperich]

I think going for a checkraise here is close, not as bad as everyone seems to think it is. Your hand is pretty well disguised, and villain is leaving bets on the table by not betting his top pair. Someone said an aggression factor of 2 would be needed to checkraise this river, but my river aggression is only 1.35 and I bet this 100% of the time with KT.

-Mike

[helpmeout]

You have to bet the river after you raised preflop.

He probably thinks you are slowplaying a bigger king.

[mperich]

I think its very unlikely for hero to be slowplaying a 1 pair hand here. I dont usually slowplay 1 pair on every street and then go for a river checkraise. In fact i don't see it often at all. The only slowplay hand for hero is 99 or very unlikely KK. I don't think a river bet is mandatory.

For what it's worth tho, I would have bet the flop turn and river here.

[Scotch78]

[ QUOTE ]
That is a bit harsh, I would guess most posters have a reasonable understanding of pot odds.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oops! I actually meant that except for his cold-calling, he seemed like a solid, thinking TAG.

[ QUOTE ]
Is your read he cold-calls hands like Kx or X9?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd seen him cold-call with AQ and A9s. On the flop I figured him for 99, a suited king or A9s. I have to admit I was very surprised to see him turn over KT, though.

[ QUOTE ]
On second look the pot is giving you immediate odds to pull your ISD for one more bet (and when it is back to you, easy call). On the other hand there are 2 on the board which taints the Q. Hmmm...not a great spot

[/ QUOTE ]

Even if we completely ignore the Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif and backdoor flush draw, I still have three outs to the nuts at 15-1. I sure hope you're calling in these spots every time /images/graemlins/tongue.gif.

[ QUOTE ]
River I would probably bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

At the time I felt he would bet the majority of the hands I put him on, but later on I realized he was the "Why bet the river when I always get sucked out on" type. Without that read though, I don't have a strong inclination either way. He was not the type to bet simply because everyone else checked, so I knew he had a hand, but, oh well. Thank you for everyone turning this into a thread with content. Damn you people!

Scott

edit: PS Do you want your bourbon or not? PM your new address already.

[helpmeout]

It doesnt matter if he has TP he raised preflop and he called the turn bet.

He would think that you wouldn't call a bet unless he is beat. Its obvious he has a King, if he doesnt then probably an overplayed flushdraw.

Either way if you dont bet the river he wont.

[mperich]

There are a variety of hands that hero could play like this that will call a turn bet and a river bet. TT-QQ for SURE call a bet, A9 calls a bet, lower pocket pairs MAY call a bet. QJ maybe, A flushdraw that hit a queen, there are a lot of hands. The only hand i see a risk from a checkraise with usually is QQ, but it seems pretty unlikely as does JT.

So to sum it up if villain is not betting this river he is LOSING A LOT OF MONEY. Therefore a checkraise is not that bad although I'm not sure if villain pays off two here anyways but he probably does enough to make the play alright. Not great, but alright.

[helpmeout]

If the player is semi decent he will know that scotch isnt going to calldown with crap. (its a big field he knows that scotch knows that he likely has a king)

He'd value bet against a loose/passive who has been calling with any piece of the board or any PP but I doubt scotch would have this image.

He'd more likely think, well he has called the turn bet so if he doesnt have me beat he wont be calling and if I am beat he will checkraise.

There is also the possibility that when he checkraises villian wont pay off, which you already mentioned.

[Guy McSucker]

[ QUOTE ]

Either way if you dont bet the river he wont.


[/ QUOTE ]

Ding! Winner.

River bet is a must here.

Guy.

[naphand]

Just because TAG should bet this River does not mean he will. TAG does not necessarily mean good player, particularly wrt post-flop play and value-betting in particular. A glance through this forum will reveal that...

This is a very read-dependent CR, and just because PT or an intial read puts this player on TAG status, it does not mean he is going to bet because that is easily the correct thing to do. IMO River CR attempts should be reserved for the right players, as perhaps a player too nervous to bet the River would also fold to the CR (so it is never going to work, or only sometimes). Against a timid player I will always bet, quite a few times (against more aggro players)you find yourself getting raised by 2-pair or a slow-played set, even TPGK LAGs. This is a read-based move, which is the question you should be asking here.