Which street did I misplay?

[sfer]

Live 4/8. Four limpers to me in the SB and I complete with K7o. Bdk3clash checks in the BB.

6 to the frop for 6 BBs. Frop is 643 rainbow. Checked to a loose, loose, loose player on the button who bets, I call, bdk3clash calls, the one more caller in there.

4 to the turn for 5 BBs. Turn is a 5. I check, bdk3clash bets, 1 fold, button calls, I checkraise, bdk3clash calls, button calls.

3 to the river for 11 BBs. River is a Q. I bet, bdk3clash calls, button folds.

[edtost]

um......raise the flop?

[partygirluk]

Seems like a fold preflop.
Call on the flop is pretty marginal.
Otherwise OK.

[Evan]

Check-raise the flop duder.

[sthief09]

if there's any chance at all that someone will check raise behind you, I'd muck the flop. I don't understand why people are saying check raise. all you said about the button is he's loose. in other words, he's going to pay you off, and you have K-high. doesn't seem like a great check raise opportunity to me

I would have bet the turn

[pokerjunky]

I think the ones that said c/r the flop were being sarcastic.

[private joker]

[ QUOTE ]
Which street did I misplay?

[/ QUOTE ]

The ones that aren't the turn and the river. (Too loose preflop completion, loose flop call not closing the action with two very weak overcards and a gutshot).

[wuwei]

[ QUOTE ]
Check-raise the flop duder.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this pot big enough to warrant that kind of play?

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
Live 4/8. Four limpers to me in the SB and I complete with K7o. Bdk3clash checks in the BB.

6 to the frop for 6 BBs. Frop is 643 rainbow. Checked to a loose, loose, loose player on the button who bets, I call, bdk3clash calls, the one more caller in there.

4 to the turn for 5 BBs. Turn is a 5. I check, bdk3clash bets, 1 fold, button calls, I checkraise, bdk3clash calls, button calls.

3 to the river for 11 BBs. River is a Q. I bet, bdk3clash calls, button folds.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fold preflop.

I like a check/raise on the flop, to get rid of the field, as button may be betting just about anything there.

Rest looks good to me.

[Alexthegreat]

If you're going to play it, why not check raise the flop?? you almost certainly don't have the best K in play, and you could add those outs to your hand by folding the other Ks....

I'm not saying this is what I'd do, I'd probably muck preflop, but if I'm playing the hand, I think I could find a check-raise on the flop.....

Certainly better than calling the flop I think....

[cnfuzzd]

Folding this preflop is a loss of EV, though probably not a substantial one.

I dont mind a checkraise on the flop, but that is more determined by table texture than anything else.

Turn and river look fine.

peace

john nickle

[Chris Daddy Cool]

[ QUOTE ]
I think the ones that said c/r the flop were being sarcastic.

[/ QUOTE ]

i'm quite sure they weren't.

[Argus]

I think a flop check/raise is good in this situation. A very loose player betting the button could mean pretty much any two overcards, any pair, or even a weak draw. Who knows? I like the raise because it cleans up your overcard outs and makes it much more likely that a pair of sevens could hold up. Turn and river are fine of course.

[wuwei]

[ QUOTE ]
If you're going to play it, why not check raise the flop??

[/ QUOTE ]

That's the key. Calling has to be your worst option on that flop. I'm likely folding, but the c/r is superior to just calling.

[me454555]

I think the call on the flop is marginal, the pot is 6sb's and I give you between 6 and 7 outs after discounting some.

The rest of the hand is fine though.

[DcifrThs]

preflop: loose button, complete sb with K7. standard.

flop: 1bet to you in a 6 bet pot with a gutter and overcard(s) draw. fold. standard.

turn. you hit after calling. bet or c'r. both not bad, but its a scarecard so any action from you on this turn will indicate to a capable player to fold.

river. standard bet.

so i think the flop is clearly the most eggregious error. turn you can bet or c'r player dependant...my question is why did bd call both turn and river? he seems like a great SS player after i read the "tight and aggro pf isn't enough" thread.

-Barron

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you're going to play it, why not check raise the flop??

[/ QUOTE ]

That's the key. Calling has to be your worst option on that flop. I'm likely folding, but the c/r is superior to just calling.

[/ QUOTE ]

no its not. your best options in terms of EV are:
1) fold.
2) call.
3) bet.
4) checkraise.

a checkraise is imo the worst option because you net nothing in terms of later street fold equity against a "loose loose" player, and gain nothing in terms implied odds if you do hit your long shot.

-Barron

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you're going to play it, why not check raise the flop??

[/ QUOTE ]

That's the key. Calling has to be your worst option on that flop. I'm likely folding, but the c/r is superior to just calling.

[/ QUOTE ]

no its not. your best options in terms of EV are:
1) fold.
2) call.
3) bet.
4) checkraise.

a checkraise is imo the worst option because you net nothing in terms of later street fold equity against a "loose loose" player, and gain nothing in terms implied odds if you do hit your long shot.

-Barron

[/ QUOTE ]


I agree with you. people too automatically think "raise or fold." not all situations are raise or fold. calling is often better than raising. people think "tight aggressive" and try to be really tight and really aggressive, but the key is SELECTIVE aggression

[wuwei]

[ QUOTE ]
a checkraise is imo the worst option because you net nothing in terms of later street fold equity against a "loose loose" player, and gain nothing in terms implied odds if you do hit your long shot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Factors to consider on that flop:

1. Pot Size: It's a nice sized pot, but not so big I feel compelled to do everything I can to win it.

2. Board texture: mildly coordinated with 3 to a straight draw.

3. Strength of our draw: it's ok. 6 overcard outs and 4 for the gutshot. The 7 outs must be discounted heavily because the make a straight for anyone with a 5.

4. Number of opponents: 5

5. Number of opponents I can face with calling two cold: 4

6. Chance my hand is better than the button: Depends on the standards of the loose loose button for betting when checked to by 5 other players. I have no feel for this. This goes back to Barron's point about fold equity. If he's loose and has a piece, he's certainly not going anywhere. If he's loose and would bet overcards on the flop, is he calling a turn bet unimproved? But yah, it's probably asking a lot to think that our K high is the better hand here. It wouldn't be suprising if a loose player paired the board, or is betting his oesd.

After listing these factors, I'll back off the idea that calling is the worst option. If we give ourselves 6 outs, we have odds to peel one off and take a look at the turn. Not closing the action, I'm still inclined to fold on the flop. I got a little caught up there in the idea that if we're going to stay in the hand, we might as well increase our chances of winning.

[Wired Jokers]

Under most circumstances in a normal, loose-passive LL game, I would lead the turn. The 5 is a very scary card, and tends to freeze up players, esp. one's who haven't shown any aggression.

But, you had a known player to your left (bkd3clash) who is aggressive. I assume you calculated that he would bet the turn for you?

For what its worth, I usually fold this pre-flop, but it's close. Flop call is fine.

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you're going to play it, why not check raise the flop??

[/ QUOTE ]

That's the key. Calling has to be your worst option on that flop. I'm likely folding, but the c/r is superior to just calling.

[/ QUOTE ]

no its not. your best options in terms of EV are:
1) fold.
2) call.
3) bet.
4) checkraise.

a checkraise is imo the worst option because you net nothing in terms of later street fold equity against a "loose loose" player, and gain nothing in terms implied odds if you do hit your long shot.

-Barron

[/ QUOTE ]


I agree with you. people too automatically think "raise or fold." not all situations are raise or fold. calling is often better than raising. people think "tight aggressive" and try to be really tight and really aggressive, but the key is SELECTIVE aggression

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think this is a horrible spot to select to be aggressive.

[mikeyvegas]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Which street did I misplay?

[/ QUOTE ]

The ones that aren't the turn and the river. (Too loose preflop completion, loose flop call not closing the action with two very weak overcards and a gutshot).

[/ QUOTE ]

I concur.

[sthief09]

why? the pot is so small. he's out of position. he doesn't really have much

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
why? the pot is so small. he's out of position. he doesn't really have much

[/ QUOTE ]

The pot isn't tiny. It's highly unlikely that anyone behind him is intending to check-raise.

He'll wind up with the best hand on the end something like 35% against like A4s, so folding seems a mistake getting 6:1. Button might have a stronger hand than that, but he also might have a weaker hand like no-pair, against which he should have some pretty significant folding equity. A check-raise seems like a justifiable risk here.

[chief444]

I'd probably fold the flop. I really don't like a check/raise with a 7SB pot. I really don't like calling with so many left to act. I don't think the call is that bad though. Bdk may be less likely to check/raise himself with you calling.

I would lead the turn.

[ropey]

Fold preflop.

Fold to the flop bet.

-ropey

[bernie]

Easy flop c/r. Why didn't you do it?

b

[Clarkmeister]

Bet or checkraise the flop. Calling=stinky.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
I think the ones that said c/r the flop were being sarcastic.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wasn't.

[bernie]

You might also take it down on with the turn bet unimproved while getting the possible winner out on the flop who may have hit the turn.

b

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
flop: 1bet to you in a 6 bet pot with a gutter and overcard(s) draw. fold. standard.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd be hard pressed to fold to a position bet on the flop where no one else has shown interest. If they had anything, they'd have bet it. There are many hands you can beat that the button may have.

b

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand why people are saying check raise. all you said about the button is he's loose. in other words, he's going to pay you off, and you have K-high. doesn't seem like a great check raise opportunity to me

[/ QUOTE ]

You have K high right now, you can improve. You may even be ahead of the button at this point.

Could you give a better c/r opportunity? What do you need to c/r?

b

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
no its not. your best options in terms of EV are:
1) fold.
2) call.
3) bet.
4) checkraise.

a checkraise is imo the worst option because you net nothing in terms of later street fold equity against a "loose loose" player, and gain nothing in terms implied odds if you do hit your long shot.


[/ QUOTE ]

You're kidding, right? Is hitting your gutshot the only way you can win this hand? Oh, it is if you just call and let everyone else in behind you.

Calling is by far the worst option here.

b

[Alexthegreat]

Yeah, guys, can someone make an argument for why calling the flop is good??

Calling is ridiculous in my opinion...your implied odds aren't that good if you do hit your gutshot, and when you hit your K and are forced to see a showdown, you are often going to get creamed by someones kicker....Calling is a terrible choice.....I don't care how little is in the pot, you need to either fold or checkraise.....period.

[bernie]

The pots not that little. It's big enough to make anyone with 2 overcards correct to call.

Did everyone lose their hand protection/buying outs section in SSHE?

b

[edtost]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think the ones that said c/r the flop were being sarcastic.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wasn't.

[/ QUOTE ]

[BottlesOf]

I'd muck this preflop, but that's clearly not a big deal. As for the flop decision, I check, and when button bets, I don't see too much of a difference between raise and call, I'd probably raise. The turn is odd, did you notice Brad would bet? I don't know why you thought the betting position would change but if you had some read, then good for you. Otherwise I'd bet this turn myself. River is standard.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't see too much of a difference between raise and call,

[/ QUOTE ]

You really don't see the difference?

b

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
Bet or checkraise the flop. Calling=stinky.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is how i approach this hand, clark:

once the loose loose player on the button bets, he has an interest in this hand. so starting from checkraising, you are putting more money into a pot where the loose loose button is a) likely to have something better than Khigh gutter overcard draw, b) very unlikely to ever release given he shows strength, and c) possibly going to 3bet if he's loose loose AND aggressive (not clear from the post).

so given you check, and the others check, and then the loose loose button bets, i think checkraising adds a negligible amount to your fold equity on the later streets, puts more in now when your behind, AND eliminates the possibility of getting a c'r in LATER if and when you actually make your hand.

ok, so its clear i think, with that in mind, that c'ring is worse. betting with absolutely nothing but 3-6 overs outs (7 is clearly possible but highly suspect)and 4 outs to a gutter getting 5:1 on your bet with the possibility of it being raised, and again gaining little fold equity given the player descriptions, betting is negative EV in this scenario. how much depends on the action etc...so we have c'ring very negative ev, betting, negative ev. and folding 0 ev.

so now where do you place calling? check and button bets. he's loose. so he's likely in for the hand here. if you call needing about 10:1 to peel 1 for the gutter, and less for your overs if they're 100% good (kings and maybe count 1 seven), then its close as it is...if you factor in the implied odds you get with a checkraise and a call (6sbs=3bbs) then you're there...but thats IF you get it on the turn AND he calls checkraise and river bet (which if you hit on the turn is likely). but factoring in effective odds of the times you call and have to fold to you're now much more longshot...its under 0 EV here.

but is it less than betting? i can't tell what betting is...

the reason i went for 1)fold, 2) call, 3) bet, 4) checkraise is because with a call you can checkraise much more likely than if you bet. but i think they're ALL under 0 except folding.

now assumptions i made:
1) loosie will almost never fold. if he folds 10% of the time you bet or checkraise you gain a great deal of equity.
2) he bets and you can manipulate a checkraise on the turn when you peel one and hit.
3) the action ends behind you with the call (very dubious assumption at higher limits but here, not so bad given the board and the checks)
4) im sure there are more implicit and explicit assumptions i made ehre but i can't think of them now...

so clark, please tell me where i went wrong in this analysis.

-Barron

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
flop: 1bet to you in a 6 bet pot with a gutter and overcard(s) draw. fold. standard.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd be hard pressed to fold to a position bet on the flop where no one else has shown interest. If they had anything, they'd have bet it. There are many hands you can beat that the button may have.

b

[/ QUOTE ]

i laid out my entire thinking on the hand below...lemme know where im off base.

thanks
-Barron

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
once the loose loose player on the button bets, he has an interest in this hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

He bet his position. So what? Way too much respect for a position bet given your hand.

[ QUOTE ]
b) very unlikely to ever release given he shows strength,

[/ QUOTE ]

This isn't true. He may fold to the c/r. He could easily fold to the turn bet. This happens quite often in this situation. Is he listed as a callling station? Even if he was I'd c/r him.

On top of that, you may have him beat with K high at this point.

Your main concern isn't with him so much as the others behind you and making it incorrect for them to draw to possibly beat you. You also can easily get a better hand to fold behind you which improves your chances to win.

Calling you give them 8-1 on the first call when you can easily cut that down.

You're thinking the only way to win is by hitting your gutshot. Which will be likely the only way you will win this if you let the others in behind you. You're K could easily be no good if it hits, and hitting a 7 you can get redrawn on by a higher card if no one has the str8.

Calling sucks.

This is a textbook c/r.

b

[BottlesOf]

Of course I see a difference, but EV wise I think they run pretty close. If you think one is clearly ahead of the other, please explain.

[sfer]

I wrote this after being awake for 24 hours so I effed up the hand. There was a two flush on the frop that never completed and my turn plan was to checkraise the button to make the 4 frush hands call 2 cold.

Brad and I talked about the river and agreed that the plan should have been to check intending to raise his bet to get an extra bet out of the button.