Should I have 4 bet AKo?

[davidross]

Online 2/4. 3 limpers to me in LP and I have Ah Ks. THe button 3 bets me and everyone folds back to me. I don't have any notes on the buttons play at this point. I call. Anyone 4 bet this to have some control going into the flop?

*** FLOP *** : [ 9c 5c 6d ]

I checked, he bet and I called. I hate this call and don't know why I made it. Who raises and who folds?

*** TURN *** : [ 9c 5c 6d ] [ Qc ]

Check, Bet and I folded. The only conceivable hand I could beat was AQ, so now that's gone too and I'm faced with calling 2 more big bets to maybe chop the pot.

The reason I posted this is that as the session wore on I saw him raise a lot from his button, so I don't necessarily think he had to have AA or KK or QQ to make the 3-bet. If I had 4 bet pre-flop or check-raised the flop maybe he might have layed down AK or a worse hand than mine.

Is this hand worth making a play on or is this a case of giving him credit for having position, fold on the flop and wait for a better opportunity?

[balt999]

Since you don't know much about the opponent intially, I would give him credit for a strong hand (JJ or higher), and when the flop completely misses you, I would muck AKoff. In my opinion, chasing AK is a losing proposition, unless you have a potential backdoor draw.

[Vehn]

You have the pot odds to call a bet on the flop with your maybe 6 outer. I would just muck the turn here too - what can you do? In the end, after you do everything technically right, a lot of poker is just asking yourself, "based on what I know about this person, does he probably have it or not, and is it worth finding out?"
P.S. I had a pretty crappy night as well, wound up breaking even after a couple hours. (Yes short week.. thanks..) I did a little self-reflection and this is what I came up with. You know what I think part of my problem is? Two tabling. Its like this is what has happened: now that I've moved into $6/$12 and $8/$16 live, 1 tabling $2/$4 online just isnt interesting to me. Know what the other part of my problem is? I suck at two tabling. I mean, really suck. I also lost track of why I play LL online anyways, and thats to improve my game, not to make money (obviously). I made some just brutal errors last night as well - so that's it, I'm done two tabling unless I'm in an ackshun mood and then no higher than $1/$2. So I dunno, give it a shot - 1 table $2/$4 for a while the next time you play, take some player notes, concentrate on your table - see what your results are like. Mine have always been much better.

Much agreed, you are not playing online micro or LL for cash, but to play better, so stay focused. Playing two tables well requires lots of concentration and focus, and the distractions of home are often great. Good luck and play well. Confidence and small successes online beget a higher BB/hr in the bigger B&M games.

[Clarkmeister]

I think this is a great spot to 4-bet preflop. There is 4.5sbs of dead money in the pot, a humongous amount that you don't want to be relying on a good flop for. Make him react to you. Especially since its a cap. 1sb into that particular pot in order to gain the momentum and get better postflop info is a great investment.

[davidross]

Thanks Clarkmeister,

That was the first thought I had when I reviewed it this morning. I think there's a good chance we had the same hand, and hate giving it up so easily. I'd rather he had to make the decisions I did.

[el gato]

Usually, Clarkmeister's advise is right on the money but in this particular case,
I think whether to 4-bet depends on what hand you put your opponent on and how well you play post-flop, otherwise you will just be wasting a bet. You seemed to have some regret that if you put the 4 raise in pre-flop that you would have had better control over your opponent. What would have done if after putting the last raise, if he bet into you on the flop? Basically, I think it comes down to how well you can control your opponent. /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

[davidross]

el gato,

My thinking is that I 4-bet then lead on the flop (He's the button), If he raises me again I think I can assume he has AK beat, and lose 1 sb more than I did, but rest easier not thinking I gave up on a winning hand.

[Clarkmeister]

Plus, you can get the same hand, and in some instances a better hand, to fold postflop. He 3-bets you with TT and you 4-bet and the flop is QJ4. He's mucking.

[el gato]

Sorry Davidross, I misread your original post. For some reason I thought your opponent was in the BB. Now I like the 4 bets even less since he had position over you. I was not trying to imply that you made a bad play or that 4-betting with AK is wrong. But I would like a better idea of what my opponent will 3-bet with before I re-raise. In your particular case, since your opponent was unknown to you is simply check-call him down (unless you flop a strong hand), and use that information later on. Good luck! /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

[Clarkmeister]

This play works best when out of position. When in position, there is no need since you can raise the flop and face the other player with a tough choice. When out of position, the 4 bet conveys considerable strength.

Put yourself in the 3-bettors shoes when 4-bet with something like JJ-99 or AK, AQ. You don't like your hand much, thats for sure, and almost certainly need some smooth sailing to be able to play back at the 4-bettor postflop.

Its an incredibly effective play, especially against thinking opponents.

[el gato]

Hey Clarkmeister,

Before I respond I just wanted to say I really enjoy both your posts and responses. Usually they very well thought out.

Regarding your post, my point simply was that re-raising with AK is not always the answer. Maybe it's because of where I play, but I have difficulty in trying to "muscle" somebody out of the pot when they have a pair. Players get very stubborn heads-up, especially when they have a pair.

You are correct about it being effective against thinking opponents, but davidross' opponent was unknown to him. I usually try to get a fix on my opponent before getting too fancy.

Best of luck! /forums/images/icons/grin.gif