Why raise preflop with Axs?

[Chr]

I have i bit trouble understanding why a raise on button with Axs after 2 limpers is so good and I normally just limp, having a feeling that it is wrong.

There is a thread under this regarding a 10/20 hand with A8s on button where several see this as a nobrainer raise on button after 2 limpers. (http://(http://www.twoplustwo.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=mediumholdem&Number=147446 &page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1))

Why would I limp?

- I have a drawing hand that need a flush or 2 pair to win.
- Occationaly it will win with an A pair, but then there wont be much action and there is a big risk that i continue in a pot where i will lose.
- A flushdraw will only flop 1:8, twopair 1:49
- If I raise and are checked to on flop, i have no idea where Im at. If i check, i will be faced with a turnbet and it was not a free card i got because, i payed for it preflop. If i bet and are raised i just lost a bet more.
- If i limp preflop, i can raise flop with anything and have a good chance getting free to the river. Its cheaper than raising preflop, check flop and call turn (which often not will be justifyed). And in the last example Im not the agressor.
- With 3 1/2 bet in the pot, why would i then invest 2 and risk changing my odds to 1:2.75?
- If i raise preflop. it will be harder to get opponents out with a flopraise because it will now justify calling with many thin hands


Why would i raise?
- I think i have a good posibility to outplay the limpers if i dont hit anything
- Good chance limpers dont have an ace since they would often have raised with an ace.

So Im down to a raise have to be playerdependent. There is no sound math in a preflop raise. I want tight players and not loose gooses because, the last ones i cant get out if they hit anything.

hehe... I know Im wrong, but i need to understand why. I dont like to raise if i dont understand why i do it.

I would also like to know what other conditions that would make you raise with Axs on button. More limpers? And when do you fold to a preflop raise. I very often fold Axs to preflopraises on button, becauce now there is even less chance that my ace can be good and then Im only playing for a flushdraw.

Thx for any input
Chr

PS I tried to link to the mentioned thread. Dont know where it ended /forums/images/icons/confused.gif Can't see it in the preview.

[Chr]

[andyfox]

I raise in this situation because I want the pot bigger in case I catch a flush draw flop, which will induce the others to continue to play and because it gives me the opportunity to take control of the hand ("check to the raiser") giving me the best opportunity to get to the river and make the best hand, or to buy the pot.

[Chr]

I raise in this situation because I want the pot bigger in case I catch a flush draw flop,

Thats what i dont understand.

There is 1:8 against catching a flushdraw. And by raising 2 limpers your maximum odds will be 1:4 and ONLY if both blinds call. Often you will lose them and then you only get 1:2.75 for your raise. It will demand many bets before you have correct price for your flushdraw. And then you also have to catch the last card for the flush.

If you limped preflop and catch a flushdraw, there is enough in the pot to call a bet. And now you have 3 or 4 opponents in and a good chance to valueraise. A bet and a call and you are hot.

If checked to, you can make the bet you didnt use preflop AND maybe buy the pot. If not.... there will be "check to the better" on turn. Now you are on the river for 2SB with correct odds.

it gives me the opportunity to take control of the hand ("check to the raiser") giving me the best opportunity to get to the river


If you want to go to the river, you have to bet the flop, if checked to. And everyone will expect you to bet. So its not a very agressive bet and you might get called or check-raised. And if you check you can be sure to be bet into on turn and then what?

Lets say you are just called on the flop bet and checked to again on the turn. It will then cost you 3 SB to get to the river. This is best case.

If you limp preflop and raise flop, its 3 bets again. There is just the difference that you can get out for 1 bet and you can drop the raise on flop if you want or maybe use it on turn if you flopped good.

And if checked to on flop after limping you can check AND call a turnbet for the exact same price as raising preflop and betting flop.

I would prefer "check to the raiser" on the turn. Not the flop. That will bring me to the river. A turnbet from an opponent is much harder to face. Limping preflop and maybe raise the flop, takes the heat off the turn and the price is the same. Now you just have the oppotunity to get out on the flop for 1 bet if it is bad.

I only see this raise as a kind of advanced semibluff where you want to steal the pot on the flop. If you can do that, by all means do it. Thats when I raise too. But its completely dependent of who the limpers are.


sighhh... i still have the feeling that i have missed something /forums/images/icons/crazy.gif

I think raising with a hand like Ax suited on the button is only a good play with at least 6 or more people in, and most useful as a deception type of play.

Consider the case of 3-way for 2 bets.

1. You've knocked out 2 people, putting some dead money in the pot.

2. You may have the best hand: wouldn't the first limper often open raise with a better ace or pocket pair, likewise the second limper not isolating with the same hands.

3. Post flop play should be easier on A-high flops: there is little reason to get killed on an A-high flop after you've shown strength pre-flop.

4. You'll often flop the best hand.

5. You'll often take it down on the flop with a single bet, inducing your opponents to incorrectly fold pair outs.

6. A four flush or pair isn't the only strong flop for you. In a 3 way field, a 3-flush, an overcard, and ace high is good hand.

7. Tricky opponents who like to put you on A-Big may make huge mistakes when your 8 plays.

So, if you got it 3-way, it would be a good raise (assign some percentage for this likelihood). Next consider 5-way for two bets (others have touched on this, the analysis is different, and I'll leave it alone) -- assign some percentage for this.

If you continue through the cases, different numbers of opponents and pre-flop scenarios, I think you'll see this as profitable in most games (provided you play well post flop).

-- henry gandorf

[Dehumanizer]

I always find this play particularly useful in loose games where there will be five or more callers in the pot.

With a raise before the flop, if you do flop the draw, or on the small chance that you flop the nuts, the fact that you raised preflop gives your opponents the odds to chase the board as well, guaranteeing you better action and a larger pot when you do complete the flush draw.

And as mentioned by some preivous posters, if you flop an ace it could be the best hand, so you have more ways to win than just the flush.

For those who advocate raising in this situation (Axs on the button w/ two limpers), are you looking to knock the blinds out? More specifically, for those who raise here to get more money in the pot, what are you looking for the blinds to do?

[Dehumanizer]

I think in general my goal would be to knock the blinds out. However, in most games where raising with A/xs is advisable (loose-passive games) and depending on how well you know your opponents, alot of blinds won't fold to a raise from the button.

So... if they fold, great. If they play and pay you off, even better, but if they catch the full house with their 7/2 off suit on the flop, prepare to cry! I guess to answer your question, I'd prefer it if the blinds would fold, but you have to know your opponents and adjust your goals accordingly