Did I lose goot?

[cowboyzfan]

(Villain recently sat down, table was a little loose passive)

Hero is UTG+1 with Q /images/graemlins/club.gifJ /images/graemlins/club.gif

fold, Hero calls, fold, EP3 calls, mp 3 calls, co raises, blinds fold, hero calls, EP calls, mp3 calls

flop 5 /images/graemlins/club.gifj /images/graemlins/heart.gif6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players, 9.5 sb)

Hero checks, EP3 check, MP2 checks, CO bets, Hero raises, eP3 folds, mp2 folds, CO calls

Turn 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players, 7BB)

hero bets, co calls

river A /images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 playerss, 9BB)

hero checks, CO bets, hero calls

[Bob T.]

It looks ok, if you are going to call, you might want to bet the river. What limit was this hand played at?.

[cowboyzfan]

this was 2/4. I was wondering about my river play. I figured he would bet after I checked but i was "protecting" myself from a raise from Ax. I really couldn't see many hands he would call me with that would lose to my hand.

I have been making this river play a lot recently, is that too tight a play?

[Bob T.]

When you are in first position, and you are going to call, it is frequently right to bet the river.

You opponent will have either hand that beats yours, or one that you beat. If you bet, you lose when he is ahead, and you win when you are ahead.

If you check, he will bet when he is ahead, and check when you are ahead.

So even if you are behind most of the time, you will lose less by betting, than by checking.

I think one of the later chapters in Ed's book, covers this exact situation, and it is one of the plays that occurs frequently, and if you apply it correctly will add a lot to your bottom line.

[Schizo]

River bet/call? Bet/fold?

[cowboyzfan]

I appreciate your comments, they are helpful. I see that deciding whether to bet for value on the river is an important concept to grasp.

However, I am still not sure I would have been better off betting in this particular case. I see that you never said I should have bet, just that I should have considered it.

I checked out my copy of SSH and two things seemed relevant. The last sentence of page 196 says you should bet if you plan to check against passive opponents "assuming they have shown no strength earlier in the hand". But in this case, the villain raised pre-flop.

Also, at the top of page 198 there is a hand example that is very similar to my situation, it even has the same hole cards (QJ). Miller says here you should bet when a scare card such as a King comes on the river but you should be "somewhat more concerned" when an Ace comes.

Considering the villain raised pre-flop and called down passively on the turn, I couldn't see many hands the villian would call me with other than an Ace. If I had some type of read on the guy, like he was very loose passive, i see that a bet would be best. But I just don't see him calling my bet and paying me off unless I am beat.

Anyone who thinks I am just missing the point, please chime in. I am trying to learn here and I realize Bob knows a lot more than I do /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[cowboyzfan]

one thing about the Matador, he gets replies /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[edtost]

the thing is, you can't fold to a bet, and most low limit players will call with a worse hand more often than they bet with one when checked to. therefore, you come out ahead by betting instead of check-calling.

[PokerBob]

Is then folding to a raise standard?

[cowboyzfan]

[ QUOTE ]
the thing is, you can't fold to a bet, and most low limit players will call with a worse hand more often than they bet with one when checked to. therefore, you come out ahead by betting instead of check-calling.

[/ QUOTE ]

so basically the check means i don't win a bet when I am ahead but i lose a bet when behind. I think I get it now. Do you think a raise is a lay down (withought a read on the player)?

[Bob T.]

first, if you get raised, I think a fold is in order.

Ok, lets say you are ahead 3 out of ten times on the river, and behind 7 out of ten times.

If you check, and your opponent bets 6 out of those seven times you are behind, and you call, you will lose an average of .6 big bets per hand.

If you bet, and he calls 2/3 of the time that you are ahead, you win .2 big bets per hand, and lose one big bet the 7 times you were behind. So you instead of losing . 6, you lose .7 - .2, or an average of .5 big bets per hand.

You still lose money, but you lose less by betting on the river, than you would by check/calling. If he calls more frequently when behind, or perhaps folds a winning hand, your loss would be even smaller.

It's only .1 to .2 of a big bet every time this comes up, but if you play 100,000 hands this year, this situation might come up a couple of thousand times, and over the course of the year, you might end up with a couple of hundred extra big bets.

Additionally, because you are betting some weaker hands on the river, your opponents, have to call you down a little more often, (if they are paying attention) so, you are likely to be paid a little bit better on your winning hands.

So by playing this way, you lose less when you are behind, and win more when you are ahead. Which part don't you like /images/graemlins/grin.gif?

Good luck,
play well,

Bob T.

[cowboyzfan]

Bob, that cleared it up really well for me. Thanks a lot for taking the time to help me out, I appreciate it.