56s...flop call

[QTip]

this table is terribly loose...driving nuts being I can't catch with my draws and my monsters keep getting busted up...the flop here I didn't like.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, CO calls, Hero calls, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises</font>, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, CO calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (12 SB) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, BB folds, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, UTG+2 calls, CO calls, Hero calls, SB calls.

Turn: (11 BB) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, UTG+2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, Hero folds, SB folds, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 3-bets</font>, UTG+2 calls, CO calls.

River: (20 BB) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 checks, CO checks.

Final Pot: 20 BB

[Nick C]

I don't know. I think it's close. UTG+2's and CO's cold-calls are a concern, plus someone could have been betting or raising a flush draw before that.

Even if you hit two pair, you could go on to lose. Trips is safer, but the 6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif may just give you a redraw against a flush.

I think folding the flop would be all right. (Edit: But I don't really have a problem with the call, either.)

On the turn, it's too bad CO raised, because otherwise I think you could call. But as it played out, I think the fold is good (especially since you're not closing the action).

It looks like you would have gone on to win, though.

[pyroponic]

And why did you call the flop raise?

[Nick C]

[ QUOTE ]
And why did you call the flop raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

Really, I don't think it's that bad. The pot's big, and Hero has a pair and a backdoor straight draw (though both of those things are weakened by flush possibilities, unfortunately).

[QTip]

yeah..that was my entire thought process....i would have called the turn and went on to win a really nice pot. 2 of them had 2 pair. That river was soooo frustrating because I haven't been able to catch any thing at this table.

To make matters worse, the next time I'm SB, someone raises and I folded 44..2 4s fell on the flop!! The pot was $100 after a flush war went on.

[QTip]

I had pot odds of 10/1 at that point and gave myself about 5 outs (that's devalued because of the flush draw - 5 for 2 pair and 1.5 for the backdoor)..made the call and prayed no one would reraise.

[QTip]

I'm actually wondering if a 3 bet would have been a better answer. I wonder if investing 1 more bet would have been worth the chance to buy a free card.

[Nick C]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm actually wondering if a 3 bet would have been a better answer. I wonder if investing 1 more bet would have been worth the chance to buy a free card.

[/ QUOTE ]

Personally, I'd be deciding between calling and folding. While SB's overcards or overpair aren't that big of an immediate concern, probably (except that he might reraise the flop), the potential flush draw is a problem. Also, your best draw is to two-pair or trips. Although the backdoor straight would have in fact gone on to win the hand for you, I'm devaluing it heavily on the flop. It's a one-card backdoor straight with a gap (and I think the 1.5 outs you mentioned would be excessive for that, even before discounting), and I don't think it gains too much value on the turn unless you catch a non-diamond 4. A 7 on the turn is obviously worth something too, but not as much.

A 3-bet of a flop raise of a PFR could potentially intimidate the other players and get you to the river for no additional bets. But if your opponents have legitimate hands, and at least two of them might, then the chances of getting checked to on the turn do go down. And your draw is somewhat weak, anyway.

[emil3000]

I certainly think you should raise or fold. Instinctually, I am leaning towards folding in this situation, but it's weekend, and I'm not gonna do any math on it. I could well be wrong. In any case I think threebetting is a better move than calling.

[sthief09]

I don't like it at all. a lot of people won't raise from the SB against that many people without a big pair, and some of the ones that do raise AK won't bet out on the flop, so there's a goodchance SB has a big pair and is going to repop it. your outs are very unclean also. you have a 1 card one-gap backdoor straight draw whichisn't worth much. you have no backdoor flush draw. there is a flush draw present, which either means 2 of your outs are dead, or at least gives anyone with a big diamond a lot of outs if you hit one of those 2 outs. you're easily dominated. immediately you're getting 11-1, and about 3/4 of the time you can expect to face more action. your outs are highly tainted. you need 4 or 5 outs to continue. I'd give you 3.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
I certainly think you should raise or fold. Instinctually, I am leaning towards folding in this situation, but it's weekend, and I'm not gonna do any math on it. I could well be wrong. In any case I think threebetting is a better move than calling.

[/ QUOTE ]

with all that action in front of him, I'd be surprised if he got a free turn card with a 3-bet enough to justify hurting his already insufficient drawing odds

[spydog]

I hate the flop call. You must consider that the SB will 3-bet you a decent amount of time after raising the field preflop from his position. Plus, after UTG+2 and CO coldcall 2 bets, you have to believe somebody is on a flush draw, meaning you have 3 outs.

[QTip]

I hear ya...and I'd say you were probably right...it ended up that 2 pair was the winner...but that's just results...should've folded the flop...I think I was borderline tilt at that point.

[Shillx]

This is the epitome of a weak drawing hand. This is the type of stuff that we make lots of money on when we are betting an overpair. You have big time negative implied odds on your draw because any /images/graemlins/diamond.gif will at the very least give a redraw to the flush (granted it won't give someone a flush very often). You still have to fear an 8 out redraw from a big overpair should you hit something like the 5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif. Making calls like this drawing to the nuts is much different when you are drawing to a hand that can still lose a good % of the time.

Brad

[emil3000]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I certainly think you should raise or fold. Instinctually, I am leaning towards folding in this situation, but it's weekend, and I'm not gonna do any math on it. I could well be wrong. In any case I think threebetting is a better move than calling.

[/ QUOTE ]

with all that action in front of him, I'd be surprised if he got a free turn card with a 3-bet enough to justify hurting his already insufficient drawing odds

[/ QUOTE ]

You are probably right, then.