Where does Barry Greenstein's book fall in relevancy?

[Oluwafemi]

we all know Barry is a world class player, but with that being said, how much of an impact do you think his book will play in poker as a whole? some things to think about:

1. how you think his book with improve your play.
2. how relevant his philosophies are to online poker and how successful they can be applied.
3. could this be yet another poker book written to cash in [not necessarily money-wise] on poker's recent boom in the last 2-3 years.
4. can this book somehow touch on and bring light to imformation about the game that we don't already know about and has'nt already been discussed?...
5. and if so, what would be the motivation behind one of the gatekeeper's of this information publishing it for all to see if only a small minority [ultra-high stakes players]] so richly benefit from knowing and employing this information?
6. Robin Hood of Poker aside, would'nt he want to keep this information in a Suisse bank safe deposit box?
7. are you [i]really that interested in what he has to say? [c'mon, be honest. do you really think what he has to say about play at the $4000-$8000 level is gonna somehow make you a gamecrusher in $10 + $1 SNGs on Party?]

this thread is'nt meant to bash, only to ask what people are looking to get out of this book [realistically], whether it can really help their game [be it $5 + $1 NL SNGs on Party or $75-$150 Stud and Trump AC]?.

thoughts.

[npc]

[ QUOTE ]
we all know Barry is a world class player, but with that being said, how much of an impact do you think his book will play in poker as a whole? some things to think about:

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know. We'll see. I'm curious to find out.

[ QUOTE ]

1. how you think his book with improve your play.
2. how relevant his philosophies are to online poker and how successful they can be applied.
3. could this be yet another poker book written to cash in [not necessarily money-wise] on poker's recent boom in the last 2-3 years.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's quite clear to me that this is what some poker players have done recently. I have no solid evidence as to how good Greenstein's book will be. However, from my impression of him, my guess would be that he is less likely to cash in than many poker players.

[ QUOTE ]

4. can this book somehow touch on and bring light to imformation about the game that we don't already know about and has'nt already been discussed?...
5. and if so, what would be the motivation behind one of the gatekeeper's of this information publishing it for all to see if only a small minority [ultra-high stakes players]] so richly benefit from knowing and employing this information?
6. Robin Hood of Poker aside, would'nt he want to keep this information in a Suisse bank safe deposit box?
7. are you [i]really that interested in what he has to say? [c'mon, be honest. do you really think what he has to say about play at the $4000-$8000 level is gonna somehow make you a gamecrusher in $10 + $1 SNGs on Party?]

this thread is'nt meant to bash, only to ask what people are looking to get out of this book [realistically], whether it can really help their game [be it $5 + $1 NL SNGs on Party or $75-$150 Stud and Trump AC]?.

thoughts.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I certainly don't know. However, you could ask all these questions about Harrington, and he turned in a pretty damn good book, IMHO.

The bottom line is that some top-flight poker players write poker books that are very insightful and some don't. It's hard (for me, anyway) to tell which of the best poker players who write books will write good ones and who won't. Until the book comes out, frankly, I don't spend a lot of time trying to figure out which books will be good and which ones won't. We'll find out when it hits the shelves. However, I'm more intrigued by the thought of a Greenstein book than I am by most of the upcoming books on my radar.

Maybe that's just me.

[barryg1]

I'm not totally sure how much my book will help people either. I have told everything I felt I could relate in a book, but in a few cases I omitted giving examples that I thought would only help someone play against me, but wouldn't help players improve overall.

The way I look at it: If Michael Jordan taught people everything he knew about basketball, they still wouldn't be able to compete with him. And that goes for him giving that help to other talented (and tall) athletes too. But he might be able to improve their games.

As far as cashing in, I haven't been motivated in this direction. I have written this book over the last two years, since I was in no hurry. I assure you that it has cost me a few million dollars as a result of games I have missed because of my dedication to the project. I don't think anyone else has made a similar sacrifice, except for Doyle in the early seventies.

By the way, I want to make it clear that I expect readers to know how to play the games before they read my book, and 2+2 offers several titles that will help. (Most of my examples use no-limit hold'em, seven card stud, or limit hold'em.) After you learn the games from reading 2+2's books, I hope my book will help you turn that knowledge into money or, in the case of some players, make them aware that they should be making an income some other way.

Barry

[PJS]

Is it right the book will be out in June?

[Danenania]

Barry,

I've noticed that much of your writing has philosophical underpinnings, and it looks like the book will be no exception. I'm curious about the influences (scholarly, personal, or otherwise) that have led you to look at the world in the way you do.

[InfernoLL]

1. I think it matters more whether it will or not than specifically how, especially if you're going to speculate before reading it.

2. Probably more relevant to the higher games on UB and Stars than the Party 15/30.

3. Given what Barry himself has said and that he's one of the most successful poker players in the last decade or more (possibly number one, no less than third), I don't think "cashing in" is as big a priority for Barry as for someone like, say, Hellmuth. As for cashing in for something other than money, Barry has already said he isn't doing this for charity, so you'll have to expand on what you mean.

4. Yes, because very few of us have played in the higher limit games.

5. This has been explained.

6. This is the same as 5.

7. Some of us vew poker as a hobby as much as a money making scheme. Even if you can't apply what's in his book to what you yourself do, it is almost definitely worth reading for entertainment value alone. This might be the most important point. I bought, read, and thoroughly enjoyed Harrington's book, and I don't play tournaments at all. Why? Because it was very interesting, whether or not I was going to be using the information. I highly doubt Barry expects more than .01% of the people who buy his book to actually go play 200/400 and above.

[benfranklin]

[ QUOTE ]
we all know Barry is a world class player, but with that being said, how much of an impact do you think his book will play in poker as a whole?

[/ QUOTE ]

How can anyone possibly say anything relevant or intelligent about an unpublished book by a first-time author /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[Rudbaeck]

I'm not an oracle, so it's impossible to say. Hopefully it's not like Hellmuth's and Cloutier's books. (Both brilliant players writing books that are [censored] [censored] [gibberish])

If he writes one fifth as well as he plays it will be magnificent.

[RollaJ]

Its one of the books I am really looking forward to. He seems to be a deeply analytical player, and that what I look for when buying an instructional poker book. If I can get any insight into the mind of a great player, it is surely worth the cover price.

[djack]

[ QUOTE ]
Its one of the books I am really looking forward to. He seems to be a deeply analytical player, and that what I look for when buying an instructional poker book. If I can get any insight into the mind of a great player, it is surely worth the cover price.

[/ QUOTE ]

Highly agreed.

[BarronVangorToth]

[ QUOTE ]
it has cost me a few million dollars as a result of games I have missed because of my dedication to the project.

[/ QUOTE ]


People should remember this before ever implying that he's trying to make a quick buck -- whatever he's going to make off of the book is NOTHING compared to what he lost in order to write it. For people like him, and for Doyle, it is a labor of love, rather than one of profit.

Regardless, I'm eagerly anticipating it and I'm certain it will be well worth the cover price.

Barron Vangor Toth
www.BarronVangorToth.com (http://www.BarronVangorToth.com)

[Oluwafemi]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
it has cost me a few million dollars as a result of games I have missed because of my dedication to the project.

[/ QUOTE ]


People should remember this before ever implying that he's trying to make a quick buck -- whatever he's going to make off of the book is NOTHING compared to what he lost in order to write it. For people like him, and for Doyle, it is a labor of love, rather than one of profit.

Regardless, I'm eagerly anticipating it and I'm certain it will be well worth the cover price.

Barron Vangor Toth
www.BarronVangorToth.com (http://www.BarronVangorToth.com)

[/ QUOTE ]

[key phrase] not necessairly money-wise
for example, one's motivation could be mainstream recoginition as opposed to that of one's peers. better yet, this could also be a different form of charity that Mr. Greenstein wishes to bestow upon those who are less fortunate [for lack of a better word], advice from one of the world's best high limit poker player's [at a discounted price]. don't be so quick to assume that i implied Mr. Greenstein's motivation was money.

[jokerthief]

[ QUOTE ]

3. could this be yet another poker book written to cash in [not necessarily money-wise] on poker's recent boom in the last 2-3 years.

[/ QUOTE ]

One doesn't reach the level of play that Greenstein has with out an absolute passion for the game. I'd be willing to wager that his motivation is of a desire to communicate rather than achieve fame. Much like a musician's desire to transmit deep feeling through song. Make a list of how many super successfull people, in all fields, spill their secrets into books for all to see. That list would be too large to count. I think when someone attains that much knowledge, the desire for that knowledge to be passed on is as strong as the desire for progeny.

[TransientR]

For me if the book gives a few insights that other books haven't covered, it would be worth it.

No book/s is going to make anyone a great poker player. Reading is one thing, real world application is another.

Frank

[SoftcoreRevolt]

[ QUOTE ]
this thread is'nt meant to bash, only to ask what people are looking to get out of this book [realistically], whether it can really help their game [be it $5 + $1 NL SNGs on Party or $75-$150 Stud and Trump AC]?.

thoughts.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really have no clue what I will get out of this book, but assuming I have nothing more pressing to read I plan to pick it up just to read his insights, since while any strategy given will be for games I will never play, I am still interested into reading the whys of the book.

Everytime I read a poker book I end up getting concepts out of it I didn't expect to understand afterwards, and hopefully it will be true this time.

[Maulik]

Barry, I love you you skill for the game and as a 'fellow mathematician' I say good job. I can't wait for this book. Hopefully sooner, I'll be playing $1000 SNG on PP and donating tons of money to some charity I feel so passionately about.

[Oluwafemi]

[ QUOTE ]
Barry, I love you you skill for the game and as a 'fellow mathematician' I say good job. I can't wait for this book. Hopefully sooner, I'll be playing $1000 SNG on PP and donating tons of money to some charity I feel so passionately about.

[/ QUOTE ]

[key word]"Hopefully". i'd rather have 1 on 1 coaching from a player like Barry, as i see it would greatly benefit me more, than a $20-$30 150 page poker book. alas, his coaching fees [*per hour] are probably more than i make in a week at my real job, IF he even coaches at all. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Maulik]

I'll bet if someone like him or Doyle were coaching they would charge more than the binds in their games, so unless you are making $4k+ week, better dig deeper /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Oluwafemi]

[ QUOTE ]
I'll bet if someone like him or Doyle were coaching they would charge more than the binds in their games, so unless you are making $4k+ week, better dig deeper /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

and yet, somehow, even if you were making $4K+ a week, something tells me you'd have to get lucky real quick and for a big score to be able to make back what you spent on those fees. imagine spending $100K on coaching fees from Barry or Doyle, be it a month or a year. you're already down $100K. how long do you think it will take you to make that $100K playing poker? how long do you think it will take to make more than that to realize a gain, provided you're still not paying them for coaching? people like Ben Affleck can throw around money like that to get world class instruction [not saying he did] but us common folk, well, let's just say we buy poker books and browse the forums on 2+2.

[$DEADSEXE$]

"How do we know he isn't just looking to cash in"

We're talking about the guy who gives away all his tourney winnings to charity right?

I would assume that no poker book would earn him more profits then what he's won in tourneys.

[Bluff Daddy]

[ QUOTE ]


The way I look at it: If Michael Jordan taught people everything he knew about basketball, they still wouldn't be able to compete with him. And that goes for him giving that help to other talented (and tall) athletes too. But he might be able to improve their games.
Barry

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a terrible analogy. Michael Jordan is one of the most gifted athletes of all time. From what I understand what made him so great was not only his natural physical ability but his work ethic and his desire to win. I dont think anyone regards Jordan as being a good teacher of the game many of his teamates actually hated playing with him.

[InfernoLL]

I think you missed the point.

[JRegs]

Hahahah. I love the song you selected for your profile of Phil Hellmuth.

[MonkeeMan]

Yeah, and I'd like to see Jordan teach Barry to be taller.

But no matter how well written Barry's book is, Jordan could write a better selling book, and Jordan is no Grisham or King.

And Einstein taught me everything he knew, but I can't come up with an original theory, so he sux as a teacher.

[Oluwafemi]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you missed the point.

[/ QUOTE ]

maybe not. i happen to believe Barry Greenstein is more than capable of teaching someone to play EXACTLY the way he does. that's not hard to do in 1 on 1 instruction. it's just like being in a classroom setting. Barry can show you how he would play A K suited in late postion with multiple limpers at a loose table. Barry can tell his secrets of how he adjusts to play at a table full of great players or a table full of average ones. Barry can tell you how he plays against Chip Reese and what to look for. Barry can tell how he approaches playing Phil Ivey short-handed, depending on the game. After he had enough time to adjust to Party's SNG structure, i'm sure he could tell you how he would beat the game. see Barry has a poker formula/strategy that is successful. he has years of experience in playing against all types of players and winning. [key] is, WOULD he teach you to play just like him. giving this oppurtunity, i'm sure that any serious poker play with competence could play exactly like Barry and do well.

However; no matter how good of a teacher Micahel Jordan is, no amount of instruction will ever get someone to play EXACTLY like him. it comes down to a physical issue rather just simply mechanics. Michael could teach me how to do a fallaway jumper, but it will never be HIS fallway jumper and with the same accuracy. i can already dunk a basketball but i will never be able to dunk it like him against the opponents in the games he plays. Michael can teach you how to play but he cannot teach you how to play like him.

poker is like classroom work. there are alot of smart and gifted students in the classroom environment across the world. there are less gifted and great basketball players across the world.

Barry could teach me to play world class poker the way he does. Michael cannot teach me to play Hall Of Fame basketball the way he does.

[royaltrux]

Like he said, you missed his point.

[InfernoLL]

Whether physical or mental, there are aspects of the student which are required to fully obtain the skills of the teacher. While there may be more very smart people than top athletes (or there might not), that doesn't change the fact that in either case the student must start with the potential ability. Greenstein could no more teach an idiot to win at high stakes poker than Michael Jordan could teach an obese couch potato how to play professional basketball. One type of learning might be possible by a larger number of people, but that makes the two different only in scale, not in substance.

Additionally, the original poster's insistance that much of Jordan's greatness came from hard work and determination means it even closer to being a generally achievable skill than you are giving it credit for.

Less importantly, I very much doubt that you could learn to play exactly the same way Barry does. Much of playing at the highest level involves integrating an explicit and logical mental process with an indescribable subconscious intuition based on past experiences and other factors. Even if you could master the logical thinking process, you lack Barry's experiences, and more importantly, Barry's subconscious means of integrating and using those experiences in decision making.

[__Q__]

[ QUOTE ]
This is a terrible analogy. Michael Jordan is one of the most gifted athletes of all time. From what I understand what made him so great was not only his natural physical ability but his work ethic and his desire to win. I dont think anyone regards Jordan as being a good teacher of the game many of his teamates actually hated playing with him.


[/ QUOTE ]


Actually, its a great analogy. Barry Greenstein is one of the most gifted poker players of all time. From what I understand, what made him so great was not only his natural intelligence, but his work ethic and desire to win.

The fact is, he is better at poker than you could ever be, however, he could improve your game a little. Likewise, MJ is better at basketball than you could ever hope to be, but he could probably improve your game a little.

[Bluff Daddy]

Maybe I worded it wrong but my point is what does Michael Jordan know about basketball? What could he possibly tell you to make you a better basketball player? Go work on your jump shot? Most great athletes dont make good coaches for a reason. I understood what Barry was trying to say but comparing himself teaching someone poker and Michael Jordan teaching someone basketball is just a bad analogy.

[__Q__]

[ QUOTE ]
my point is what does Michael Jordan know about basketball?

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you serious?

[InfernoLL]

[ QUOTE ]
what does Michael Jordan know about basketball?

[/ QUOTE ]

Best unintentionally ironic post ever.