Tyson Vs. Ali

[-Syk-]

Both in their prime. Who wins?

[Sponger15SB]

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Both in their prime. Who wins?

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I don't know [censored] about boxing, that being said, I'd say Tyson wins pretty easily.

[Clarkmeister]

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Both in their prime. Who wins?

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I don't know [censored] about boxing, that being said, I'd say Tyson wins pretty easily.

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Wow, talk about proving your first statement with your second!

[bholdr]

...was unbeatable in his prime, even though i think Ali was by far the greater fighter. he would've knocked ali out, no doubt.

my all time fantasy matchup would be Marciano v Foreman (circa '71)- two huge punchers that were damn near impossible to KO.

[MEbenhoe]

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Both in their prime. Who wins?

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I don't know [censored] about boxing, that being said, I'd say Tyson wins pretty easily.

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Wow, talk about proving your first statement with your second!

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damn it you beat me to it. Ali with ease. Tyson in his prime = overrated. He never beat anyone that good.

[slickpoppa]

Training techniques were so much better when tyson was in his prime that i bet tyson would win

[Chobohoya]

Ali. This was settled in "The Rundown."

[[censored]]

Name one great fighter Tyson beat.

[Alobar]

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Both in their prime. Who wins?

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this is the kind of question people who dont know anything about boxing always ask

Ali, and its not even close. Tyson was never realy that good

[tbach24]

I'm not much of an avid boxing fan, but I would imagine that Ali would win. How about Foreman though? Where does he fit into this spectrum?

[MEbenhoe]

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...was unbeatable in his prime

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It's easy for tyson to be unbeatable in his prime when he doesn't fight anyone with any talent. Ali fought and won some of the greatest fights of all time.

[hoyaboy1]

Tyson was very good in his prime, but he was easily flustered when people could take his shots and punch back. Ali in a wide decision or a late round KO over a tired Tyson.

Foreman was a harder puncher and better fighter than Tyson and Ali handled him.

[PhatTBoll]

Ali would win, but I don't know about "easily". Significantly taller, significantly smarter. He would have been able to fight on his own terms and wear Tyson down.

[bholdr]

ali lost some fights in his prime too. i wasn't looking at one fighter's capacity to defeat the other, IMO, they could each land a lucky one, but Tyson wasn't even CHALLENGED in his prime, nobody even came close. Spinks and Holmes were worthy opponents, too.

bottom line, IMO, tyson didn't have the capacity to lose in his prime, ali did.

[-Syk-]

So what happened with Tyson? There were no decent fighters for him to box?

[Alobar]

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Spinks and Holmes were worthy opponents, too.



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AHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA

HAHAHAHAHA

ROFL!!!

HAHAHAHAHAHAH

oh man, thats toooooo funny!

[razor]

A more interesting question (to me anyway)...

Tyson v Lewis in their prime.

Who wins?

[bholdr]

tyson was far, far faster than foreman or ali. i remember when foreman was asked about tyson in the early 90s- he said something about any fighter having to be nuts to fight him, and that he considered tyson the greatest living fighter. If foreman thought Tyson would be tougher to beat than Ali, i'm with him on that.

[Alobar]

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A more interesting question (to me anyway)...

Tyson v Lewis in their prime.

Who wins?

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Thats a way better question. I'd go with Lewis, since its both "in their prime" so that would mean he'd actually show up to the fight.

[[censored]]

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So what happened with Tyson? There were no decent fighters for him to box?

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When he fought fighters who prepared for him or of equal talent he lost again and again.

[hoyaboy1]

Not really fair, Alobar. Holmes and Spinks were both GREAT fighters - one just happened to be way past his prime and the other a blown up light heavy.

[Alobar]

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tyson was far, far faster than foreman or ali. i remember when foreman was asked about tyson in the early 90s- he said something about any fighter having to be nuts to fight him, and that he considered tyson the greatest living fighter. If foreman thought Tyson would be tougher to beat than Ali, i'm with him on that.

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forman also named all his kids george forman. hes not the smartest guy on the planet.

[Sponger15SB]

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Training techniques were so much better when tyson was in his prime that i bet tyson would win

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That is pretty much the basis for my choice. Tyson trained like an absolute freaking animal and is probably way quicker and obviously stronger.

[Alobar]

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Not reall fair, Alobar. Holmes and Spinks were both GREAT fighters - one just happened to be way past his prime and the other a blown up light heavy.

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oh, im not dogging on Holmes or Spinks, AT ALL. But to say they were worthy opponents when they faught Tyson is a big Joke.

[bholdr]

how 'bout Lewis vs Ali? Lewis is/was a gigantic height/ reach advantage over Ali, as wekk as being just as skilled and patient. no way he'd fall for any shenaganins. I'd probably bet on lewis.

[bholdr]

...even the girls!

but i like him anyway.

[razor]

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I'd go with Lewis

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That's what I figure... but I've never followed boxing that closely so I don't trust my judgement.

[DcifrThs]

you're avatar is SIC!!!


is that legal in football? i dont know much about rules and sh*t but i can't see it as being that bad to suplex a guy...

-Barron

[Prof. Chaos]

The answer is clearly Ali.

This should have been a poll too.

[DcifrThs]

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significantly smarter.

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i dont think this is up for discussion...

-Barron

[thatpfunk]

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Tyson was very good in his prime, but he was easily flustered when people could take his shots and punch back. Ali in a wide decision or a late round KO over a tired Tyson.

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[-Syk-]

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So what happened with Tyson? There were no decent fighters for him to box?

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When he fought fighters who prepared for him or of equal talent he lost again and again.

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5 losses is again & again?

[DontRaisePlz]

I think a well developed Rooney/D'Amato trained fighter could stand a chance. Tyson never really reached a true prime, he just slowly faded when other things began to happen in his life, like King, the rape, and Givens.

Tyson would not get as outboxed and outskilled as he did in his losses if he kept his head in the game.

[tolbiny]

Without reading the thread at all
ALI- and its not close. Ali fought Frazier and Foreman- Tyson lost to Buster douglas... not to mention that Ali lost many of his prime years to his fight over the draft.

[tolbiny]

"bottom line, IMO, tyson didn't have the capacity to lose in his prime, ali did."

Ali had a large portion of his prime stolen from him- tyson lost to James "Buster" Douglas in his prime. Yeah, he wasn't prepared for the fight, but it showed how a second rate boxer with something to prove oculd put tyson down. Holyfield also gave tyson fits after his jail time- tyson wasn't the same, but a large part of tyson's advantage came from a psycological dominance of his opponents. Ali wouldn't be intimidated- the rumble in the jungle? Foreman was an absolute BEAST back then. And Ali didn't let his fear (which he admitted to in later interviews) affected him at all. He in fact turned it against Foreman- he was much better psycologically- my better intellectually than tyson, and strong and fast enough to keep up with tyson.

[rusellmj]

If you've never seen When We Were Kings, then you need to. Goerge Foreman was the Tyson of his day (and a much better boxer). He was mowing down opponents on his way to the title fight with Ali. Ali did not overwhelm Foreman but fought a smart fight (rope-a-dope) and knocked Foreman out. Nothing less would happen to Tyson. Tyson has gone down to the better boxer every time. A case could be made for Tyson being the most overrated athlete in history. Ali deserves every sports accolade he has gotten. See the movie, you won't regret it. "Ali, Boom-Bah Yea!"

Russ

[Alobar]

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Tyson would not get as outboxed and outskilled as he did in his losses if he kept his head in the game.

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yeah, but thats one aspect of fighting. I dont think its possible for tyson to keep his head in the game. The guy is a borderline nutjob.

[rusellmj]

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The guy is a borderline nutjob.

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Correction: The guy is a full on nutjob.

Russ

[Alobar]

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The guy is a borderline nutjob.

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Correction: The guy is a full on nutjob.

Russ

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well I was giving him some benefit of the doubt, I mean hes manic depressive and stuff. If king hadnt sunk his teeth into him, he could have maybe been just borderline nut job.

you are prolly right tho.

[[censored]]

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A case could be made for Tyson being the most overrated athlete in history.



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I think this is an interesting question. I was a huge fan of Tyson when I was young but as we both aged my opinion of him went south. He is considered one of the greatest heavyweights of all time by many people and I don't think he is close. At some point to be great you must defeat great.

I am not convinced that if you move Tyson's prime (I'm thinking age 20-28) either forward or backward 10 years he even becomes the Heavyweight Champion of the world. I can't think of even one other good fighter from that era and his biggest challenger on paper was a light heavyweight who was scared to death of him.

[MMMMMM]

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tyson was far, far faster than foreman or ali.

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While Tyson's hand speed was faster than other heavyweights, Ali's hand speed was faster than Tyson's yet still.

Ali had better footwork. Ali had better reflexes. Ali was just more coordinated. And Ali was bigger than Tyson, and he defeated bigger beasts than Tyson.

[nothumb]

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Correction: The guy is a full on nutjob.

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That's why they got him on the Zoloft, so he don't kill you motherfuckers.

NT

[EliteNinja]

I think Tyson would lose because he'd get disqualified for eating Ali's children.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

its kind of weird asking these types of questions because the difference in training and nutriion and such. people today are a lot faster and stronger than those of before and unless the older was significantly more skilled than the newer, no amount of skill edge could make up for the raw physical attributes and new technology.

for example, if the 27 yankees were to play a 7 game series agaisnt the '04 devil rays, the devil rays would probably sweep the yankees.

that said, i think ali would still win because ali really IS that much better than tyson, he'd still be faster than tyson and george formeman was equal and probably stronger in stregnth and punching power to tyson and ali beat him by outboxing him.

[A_C_Slater]

Would Ali lose to a Buster Douglas in his prime? Think about that one.


Ali would just sit back and let Tyson have a go at punching his body. Ali was invincible in the body area. Tyson would be dead tired by the 8th round if not sooner and then Ali would pwn him.

Ali in nine.

What about Tyson vs. Frasier?

That one is more interesting I think.

[Clarkmeister]

The difference between Ali's prime and Tysons is like 15 years. Advances in the stuff you mention just wasn't *that* significant in that timeframe.

[Clarkmeister]

"Would Ali lose to a Buster Douglas in his prime?"

/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Chris Daddy Cool]

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The difference between Ali's prime and Tysons is like 15 years. Advances in the stuff you mention just wasn't *that* significant in that timeframe.

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yea i realized that when i wrote it, but i did in the end say that ali would win anyways! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

btw, what do you think of the yankees vs devil rays comment? because i think that would apply there.

[DesertCat]

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Both in their prime. Who wins?

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1990 Feb. 11 -- James Douglas, KO by 10
1996 Nov. 9 -- Evander Holyfield, TKO by 11
1997 June 28 -- Evander Holyfield, L DQ 3
2002 June 8 -- Lennox Lewis, KO by 8
2004 July 30 -- Danny Williams, Louisville, KY, KO by 4

It can be argued that Mike Tyson was never much of a boxer. He has a suspect chin, poor defense and no heart. He was just a bully with a big punch, whenever he couldn't knock someone out in the early rounds he would get tired and just quit.

[Clarkmeister]

I think the greats generally transcend eras, with a possible exception for some football positions.

That said, I'm inclined to take the Rays, but I don't think its as open and shut as you do assuming both teams would play a full season under "common knowledge/rules" to acclimate prior to the 7 game series.

[Clarkmeister]

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Both in their prime. Who wins?

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1990 Feb. 11 -- James Douglas, KO by 10
1996 Nov. 9 -- Evander Holyfield, TKO by 11
1997 June 28 -- Evander Holyfield, L DQ 3
2002 June 8 -- Lennox Lewis, KO by 8
2004 July 30 -- Danny Williams, Louisville, KY, KO by 4

It can be argued that Mike Tyson was never much of a boxer. He has a suspect chin, poor defense and no heart. He was just a bully with a big punch, whenever he couldn't knock someone out in the early rounds he would get tired and just quit.

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I wholeheartedly agree. The only fighter who ever stood up to him that he beat was Razor Ruddick and he was life and death to do that.

[A_C_Slater]

They've been showing a lot of Ali fights on ESPN classic lately, no way you could think Tyson has a chance if you watch these fights.

In Ali/Frasier 3 Ali said before the final round 'I feel like I'm going to die, this is what death must feel like.'
(Ali won that fight)

The man was hardcore man. F*cking hardcore.

I don't think Ali was ever knocked out in his entire career. Can any boxing geek confirm this for me?

Tyson can't beat someone that he can't knock out.

I do think that Tyson fights are more entertaining, just due to the sheer brutality and reckless abandoned nature of them. It's like watching a Rocky fight, but it's real. That being said, I think Tyson/Douglas is the greatest fight I have ever seen.

But entertainment value and skill are two very different things. Sure it's fun to straddle and bet at the flop regardless of what your hole cards are, but does that strategy make you a winner?

[Clarkmeister]

Holyfield Tyson I was great because it was such total pwnage.

[rusellmj]

As someone who used to compete on a regular basis on my home planet of Krypton, I know this: All skills being equal, physical conditioning is what will give you the edge. That said, a physically superior opponent stands little chance against superior skill. I've seen this played out over and over.

Russ

[Clarkmeister]

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Both in their prime. Who wins?

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Ali in his condition TODAY might've beaten that clown Tyson just lost to.

[nolanfan34]

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Both in their prime. Who wins?

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Ali in his condition TODAY might've beaten that clown Tyson just lost to.

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I don't have much to add, except this is a crazy, random 4-month-old bump. Good memory.

[utmt40]

If Tyson and Ali would have fought Ali would be worse off than he already is today. Tyson hands down wins!

[partygirluk]

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If Tyson and Ali would have fought Ali would be worse off than he already is today. Tyson hands down wins!

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You must be smoking some good shit.

[utmt40]

partygirluk is now on your ignore list.

[ssomega]

Ali never fought in his prime.

[Blarg]

Ali by a landslide.

Tyson rarely had to fight more than a couple rounds during the glory days of his career -- sometimes not more than a couple of minutes. He didn't have to take many punches or exhibit much endurance. He had tremendous crushing power, and decent speed, but he never had to be a complete boxer. He was so good at what he could do that he simply got in and smashed stuff, real quick.

Ali was legendary for his footwork. As he proved throughout a career, he could take a punch very well, too. With good enough footwork, it's very hard for anyone to land a blow at all, much less a truly punishing one, and Ali's footwork was very, very good. He could use it to help stay away from blows and help them land more lightly.

Conditioning matters a lot, but it's too easy to think that today's training techniques are the beginning and end of things and make all today's champions easy victors. The guys in the old days used to fight more and longer rounds, too. They were far from in less than excellent shape.

Also implied when comparing older athletes with today's athletes is that for some reason Ali, say, wouldn't have access to today's training techniques if he magically moved forward in time, or that Tyson wouldn't lack today's advanced training if he got zapped back to the past. I guess we can set up imaginary matches any way we want to, but that strikes me as a little strange to me.

[Blarg]

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A more interesting question (to me anyway)...

Tyson v Lewis in their prime.

Who wins?

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Emmanuel, or Jerry?

[Blarg]

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Training techniques were so much better when tyson was in his prime that i bet tyson would win

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That is pretty much the basis for my choice. Tyson trained like an absolute freaking animal and is probably way quicker and obviously stronger.

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Ali was VERY fast. VERY. Not just with his hands, but with his whole body movement, too. He was even fast enough to get away with a cardinal sin in boxing, leaning his body back to avoid punches instead of slipping them to the side. He also was able to insult some great boxers by throwing right leads, which is really putting the shame on them.

One thing Ali was not, was slow.

[-Skeme-]

This post is so old.

[Blarg]

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Without reading the thread at all
ALI- and its not close. Ali fought Frazier and Foreman- Tyson lost to Buster douglas... not to mention that Ali lost many of his prime years to his fight over the draft.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yup. He lost some of the high polish on his attributes during that time, including a key one to boxers and one that regularly comes as a process and sign of aging -- his footspeed. He lost mobility and started slugging it out more, and was able to be hit more. Ali was kind of a legend in two phases -- before and after his time-out over the draft. Those were his prime years, and he wasn't the same after.

[Vince Young]

That's easy...

http://www.mitchpix.com/htn%20images/ali.jpg

Ali by KO.

[Blarg]

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If you've never seen When We Were Kings, then you need to. Goerge Foreman was the Tyson of his day (and a much better boxer). He was mowing down opponents on his way to the title fight with Ali. Ali did not overwhelm Foreman but fought a smart fight (rope-a-dope) and knocked Foreman out. Nothing less would happen to Tyson. Tyson has gone down to the better boxer every time. A case could be made for Tyson being the most overrated athlete in history. Ali deserves every sports accolade he has gotten. See the movie, you won't regret it. "Ali, Boom-Bah Yea!"

Russ

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Yeah. People don't realize how fearsome Foreman really was. He completely humiliated the people who beat Ali in almost no time at all. Plenty of people did not think Ali was going to win that fight. Foreman was a bear -- fearless, aggressive, an incredibly strong puncher with hands like cinderblocks, and by all accounts not a very nice fellow. A real scary monster of a man, like Tyson, who didn't just beat his opponents, but destroyed them. And, like Tyson, didn't usually have to draw on his endurance to do it.

Ali beat him. And not by a little, either mentally or physically. Ali may in a way have ironically done him the biggest favor of his life by doing it, but Ali destroyed him.

I don't think Tyson would have much of a chance. Liston and Foreman were pretty damn scary guys too, and Ali humiliated them both.

[Blarg]

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This post is so old.

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Yeah, it is. Didn't look at the date, first time I saw it.

[-Skeme-]

Yeah, I made it.

[bernie]

Ali. But he'd take a beating. Ali never faced an opponent like Tyson in his peek-a-boo prime. Never fought against that style nor someone who perfected that style the way Tyson did. Ali wouldn't be able to just jab him. Holmes tried that. Even though Holmes was old, his jab was still world class. Tyson walked right through it. Tyson was also extremely agile during his prime. Ali would have his hands full.

No, Ali would win. But not as easily as some may think. He may have had to rope-a-dope him the way he did Foreman and take him into the later rounds. Early in the fight, it could be a toss-up. Especially if the ring is small.

b