Semi-bluff turn bet good?

[Lawrence Ng]

10/20 Live NL game.

I'm in the SB with J /images/graemlins/spade.gifT /images/graemlins/spade.gif

UTG limps ($1500), MP limps ($2000), all fold and back to me and I call the extra $10 ($1700). BB checks ($800).

Pot is $40

Flop comes K /images/graemlins/spade.gif9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif.

I check, BB checks, UTG checks, MP 1 overbets the pot at $100.

I call. BB shakes his head a little and calls, UTG folds.

Pot: $340.

At this point I have BB on a King weak kicker, but have MP pegged on on a nine or draw. MP is a solid pre-flop player and would not have limped with AK or and king for that matter. He could also potentially have a bigger flush than I do as I have seen him capable of overbetting the flop with a lot of draws when he has position.

Turn brings the 7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

I bet $350.

Good turn bet? Should I have c/r the flop for a 3x pot amount instead?

Comments on flop and turn play welcomed.

Thanks.

Lawrence

[AZK]

I think a turn check-raise is a better bluffing attempt? Is it putting too much money at risk? I'd like to hear what some people think about a turn check-raise rather than lead. It's easy for someone with a TPTK like hand to call a turn bet, it's much harder to call a turn check-raise. Plus if they don't bet to keep the pot small you get a free card? Eh?

[creedofhubris]

[ QUOTE ]
10/20 Live NL game.

I'm in the SB with J /images/graemlins/spade.gifT /images/graemlins/spade.gif

UTG limps ($1500), MP limps ($2000), all fold and back to me and I call the extra $10 ($1700). BB checks ($800).

Pot is $40

Flop comes K /images/graemlins/spade.gif9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif.

I check, BB checks, UTG checks, MP 1 overbets the pot at $100.

I call. BB shakes his head a little and calls, UTG folds.

Pot: $340.

At this point I have BB on a King weak kicker, but have MP pegged on on a nine or draw. MP is a solid pre-flop player and would not have limped with AK or and king for that matter. He could also potentially have a bigger flush than I do as I have seen him capable of overbetting the flop with a lot of draws when he has position.

Turn brings the 7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

I bet $350.

Good turn bet? Should I have c/r the flop for a 3x pot amount instead?

Comments on flop and turn play welcomed.

Thanks.

Lawrence

[/ QUOTE ]

What are you representing with that turn bet? 76?

If you had a monster, wouldn't you be betting the flop harder, given the presence of draws and the cold caller of an overbet?

It's going to be tough for someone to call with one pair, of course, but it's an odd card to bluff with.

I'm not a fan of calling overbets with draws in general. I would raise or fold.

[betgo]

On the turn, you don't have that much and two people in the pot have put in an overbet on the flop. I would try to check/call the turn.

On the flop, you have a very strong draw, so you could checkraise. However, with the overbet, I would probably just call.

[Utah]

It is an odd looking bet but your going to take it down enough times to make it profitable, especially since you have odds when you do get called.

I dont like the flop play because you arent getting the odds, your opponents can get away from their hands if the flush hits, and you might lose a ton if your opponents are on a bigger draw.

The problem with a flop checkraise is that UTG is still inbetween you and you the original raiser and you cant be sure what he has.

What is there read on you?

[KaneKungFu123]

[ QUOTE ]
10/20 Live NL game.

I'm in the SB with J /images/graemlins/spade.gifT /images/graemlins/spade.gif

UTG limps ($1500), MP limps ($2000), all fold and back to me and I call the extra $10 ($1700). BB checks ($800).

Pot is $40

Flop comes K /images/graemlins/spade.gif9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif.

I check, BB checks, UTG checks, MP 1 overbets the pot at $100.

I call. BB shakes his head a little and calls, UTG folds.

Pot: $340.

At this point I have BB on a King weak kicker, but have MP pegged on on a nine or draw. MP is a solid pre-flop player and would not have limped with AK or and king for that matter. He could also potentially have a bigger flush than I do as I have seen him capable of overbetting the flop with a lot of draws when he has position.

Turn brings the 7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

I bet $350.

Good turn bet? Should I have c/r the flop for a 3x pot amount instead?

Comments on flop and turn play welcomed.

Thanks.

Lawrence

[/ QUOTE ]

This game looks very weak, especially if BB is calling here with a weak King Kicker.

Right away Im thinking flush draw for Villian and this hand is very dangerous.

I like the line you took. If Villian calls and the river is a Spade, what is your line?

[ethan]

[ QUOTE ]

What are you representing with that turn bet? 76?


[/ QUOTE ]

T8, maybe spades? I can't imagine 76 making it to the turn here, unless maybe it's 76 /images/graemlins/spade.gif.

[ QUOTE ]

If you had a monster, wouldn't you be betting the flop harder, given the presence of draws and the cold caller of an overbet?


[/ QUOTE ]

The cold-caller of the overbet happened after hero called the flop bet. That said, the point's otherwise reasonable. Your flop action doesn't look like a made hand since you're only calling with 2 to act behind you, so I'd think you're trying to convince your opponent that that 7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif helped you.

[ QUOTE ]

It's going to be tough for someone to call with one pair, of course, but it's an odd card to bluff with.

I'm not a fan of calling overbets with draws in general. I would raise or fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Say you c/r the flop and only MP calls (after he overbets I presume he's calling any reasonable c/r.) A pot c/r is to 400, so let's say the pot has 800 and you have 1300 behind. On a missed turn, you can bet 400-500 and hope he doesn't raise, leaving you some room on the river. This line's plausible, but I'm not sure if I prefer it to the line taken in the actual hand.

[creedofhubris]

[ QUOTE ]

Say you c/r the flop and only MP calls (after he overbets I presume he's calling any reasonable c/r.) A pot c/r is to 400, so let's say the pot has 800 and you have 1300 behind. On a missed turn, you can bet 400-500 and hope he doesn't raise, leaving you some room on the river. This line's plausible, but I'm not sure if I prefer it to the line taken in the actual hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, that's why playing a draw out of position sucks. There are no good lines.

[TStoneMBD]

you say that you put villain on a 9 or a bigger spade draw. if that is the case i like checkraising the turn an amount big enough that you are sure villain will fold a flush draw. if he calls your bet you can safely check-fold the river, or get your stack in when your draw connects.

i dont like leading out big on the turn because if villain is on a flush draw you wont know where you stand on the river, and unless you want to bluff off all your chips youre left giving up the pot.

[cwl]

i think its better to check the turn, then, depending on what happens, consider raising. if mp makes around a pot sized bet your natural raise would basically be to push which i think would be fine. if it gets checked around its not really the end of the world getting a free card for your draw. if mp makes a smaller bet i might just call. any reasonable raise you make would probably get you pot stuck so i might just take the cheap draw. i dont really like betting out here because you open up the possibility of getting your great draw bet out of the pot if someone has a strong hand and dont have tons of folding equity against reasonable but not great hands.

[Lawrence Ng]

[ QUOTE ]
I like the line you took. If Villian calls and the river is a Spade, what is your line?

[/ QUOTE ]

My plan on the river was to bet half the pot if UTG folded and MP folds.

If UTG calls the turn, I check the river if I miss.

If both call the turn, I check the river if I miss.

So I'm only going for the river bluff if only MP calls.

Lawrence

[Lawrence Ng]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, that's why playing a draw out of position sucks. There are no good lines.


[/ QUOTE ]

Well now, this would highly depend on my table image wouldn't it? For that matter, I would also play a set this way and both my opponents know it would influences my turn bet.

Lawrence

[Lawrence Ng]

[ QUOTE ]
stand on the river, and unless you want to bluff off all your chips youre left giving up the pot.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'd never bluff my whole stack on the river. I'd maybe bet only 1/2 the pot. Entice a call. 1/2 the pot will do the trick nicely if I am putting him a nine and trying to milk what I think my hand is worth against his marginal hand.

Anyways, after UTG called the flop, I was afraid it would get checked around, which isn't a bad thing per say, but then I'd lose all power if I either

hit my flush (in which case I wouldn't know where I stood compared to MP if MP bet)

hit my straight (which is obviously good, but I highly doubt I would get paid off if I pot bet the river.)

I think it was an good opportunity here to make a stance and semi bluff purely because I sensed weakness on both parties and I had a tight solid image.

Lawrence

[creedofhubris]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, that's why playing a draw out of position sucks. There are no good lines.


[/ QUOTE ]

Well now, this would highly depend on my table image wouldn't it? For that matter, I would also play a set this way and both my opponents know it would influences my turn bet.

Lawrence

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course, the best line for a draw is "scare the hell out of your opponents so much they instantly fold". But that's a meta-line not achievable for a lot of us.