Not-so-interesting ethical situation?

[Clarkmeister]

I'm assuming most will agree with how I handled it, but maybe not all so I'll post it.

40-80. I have 5 small bets in front of me, and one $1k chip that I had placed on the table when it was my button. I open raise a few hands later from MP with AKs. BB calls.

Flop is KK7. BB checks, I bet, he checkraises, I 3-bet.

Note my 3-bet now uses the last of my $10 chips and all I have in front of me is my $1k chip. BB calls my raise and flips his cards up. As he is flipping them I say "don't do that [insert name], I still have a live grand in front of me. But his cards are already face up. He has 76o and is drawing nearly dead.

The dealer flips the turn card which is an offsuit 8 and he checks, I bet and he says, "you know I'm going to call you all the way down". He's now drawing dead. The river is something, he checks, I bet, he calls, I win, toke the dealer and take the pot.

Standard?

[coolhandkuhn]

ethically I can't see a problem. If the guy was a real live one, I might have eaten the two big bets you got from him to keep him happy and at the table longer (and in a gambling mood)...it's a toss up, though.

[WDC]

yep

[MrTop]

I don't know what else that you could do.

[cjx]

I don't think it's so much of an ethics thing as it is the difference between being a nice guy and a hard ass. Neither is necessarily wrong.

cjx

[mmcd]

"you know I'm going to call you all the way down"


The river is something, he checks, I bet, he calls


Sounds like a sharp guy.

[nolanfan34]

[ QUOTE ]
"you know I'm going to call you all the way down"


The river is something, he checks, I bet, he calls


Sounds like a sharp guy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly, he doesn't sound too concerned about potentially losing a bet or two.

I'd probably make the same mistake that guy did, since I have no clue what a 1k chip looks like. He probably thought it was your card capper. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[turnipmonster]

standard. him flipping after he calls your theoretical allin is actually weird. in big bet, the person who gets called generally will flip (as he has to show first anyways), and then the caller flips as a courtesy to the other player.

--turnipmonster

[Sarge85]

I may be totally ignorant, but doesnt that kill his hand?

Sarge/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
I may be totally ignorant, but doesnt that kill his hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

I've only ever seen that rule in tournaments, never in cash games. Of course, that doesn't mean that some rooms don't have that rule, but the Mirage doesn't.

[Voltron87]

Not very interesting.

[turnipmonster]

why would you show your hand if you didn't have to?

[andyfox]

Nothing wrong with what you did. If you felt meta considerations trumped the $, you could have done something else, but there's nothing here involving ethics.

On another note, though, I'm in favor of only chips of the prevailing color play in a game. I know you didn't do it, but I've seen guy hide a $1-K chip to make others think they're all-in. Same with bills. As soon as a big chip comes onto the table, make the player color down. One should only be allowed to color up if one has a certain minimum in the prevailing chips on the table.

[BarronVangorToth]

You should always double check how much money your opponent has so... what Clark did is A-Okay in my book.

Problems come into play with weird tactics I've seen some use in No Limit where they will have eight stacks of $5 chips arranged like this:

stack - stack - stack
stack - <???> - stack
stack - stack - stack

The MIDDLE stack would be, say, all $25 - $100 chips, with a red chip on top. So it LOOKS like 3 rows of 3 columns of $5 x 20 -- or, $900.

In reality, it is anywhere from $400 - $2000 more than that.

THAT I have a problem with in those place that let that slide.

Barron Vangor Toth
www.BarronVangorToth.com (http://www.BarronVangorToth.com)

[nolanfan34]

[ QUOTE ]
why would you show your hand if you didn't have to?

[/ QUOTE ]

I just meant I wouldn't have noticed Clark's chip, not that I would have turned my hand over.

[SinCityGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
I bet and he says, "you know I'm going to call you all the way down".

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice fastplay. Perfect. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[bigfishead]

Clark, you know me and ethics....No problem whatsoever with how you handled it. Well done in fact by warning him.

[Derek in NYC]

Even in tournaments, I dont think the rule applies in HU situations. At least in the cardrooms I've played in, sometimes you have angleshooters who will flash their cards when HU on you to get a read on you.

[riffraff]

It's not like you wouldn't have bet the turn and river anyways. Why should he be let off the hook by flipping his cards up? If I were him and was hell-bent on calling you the whole way, and thought for a second you might stop betting the best hand if I revealed mine then I'd do it too =)

Reminds me of the beer commercial where the guy pushes in a lot of chips and then flashes his cards to the dealer and other players still to act and says "is this a good hand?" Not even that funny because nobody is that stupid.

[Michael Davis]

I think your opponent made a $79.99 mistake by calling the river.

-Michael

[RacersEdge]

I know this wasn't the issue in the original post, but relative to knowing how much a player has in front of him - isn't it standard practice to ask "how much you got there" when both players are live in a hand? This would elimnate the weird chip stacking problem that some players create.

Remember, I'm NPLP.



NPLP = Never Played Live Poker

[J.A.Sucker]

You're right that this is an uninteresting situation. It would be somewhat more interesting if this was a live tourist, as opposed to a live regular (which I assume, since you know his name).

What is shocking is that you somehow found yourself losing in any poker game. I just didn't think that happened to you! /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[Clarkmeister]

Yeah, been a crappy week. Ciest le vie.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

Absolutely standard. It was his responsibility to protect his own hand. If he chooses to turn it up prematurely, that doesn't deprive you of your right to act on your own hand, even with the additional information you now have. He should have been paying more attention. There is nothing unethical about what you did here. However, if you had chosen NOT to keep betting, THAT would have been unethical, (letting a sucker keep his money that is). /images/graemlins/grin.gif

al

[Al_Capone_Junior]

This is from the tournament section, rule #21, from ciaffone's "Robert's rules of poker"...

21. Showing cards from a live hand during the action injures the rights of other players still competing in an event, who wish to see contestants eliminated. A player in a multihanded pot may not show any cards during a deal. Heads-up, a player may not show any cards unless the event has only two remaining players, or is winner-take-all. If a player deliberately shows a card, the player may be penalized (but his hand will not be ruled dead). Verbally stating one's hand during the play may be penalized.

TDA rule #35 addresses this too...

35. A player who exposes his cards during the play may incur a penalty, but will not have his hand killed.


This is from a conversation with a friend of mine, who is very knowledgeable, and has been a floorman and major tournament director for many years.

My question...

Suppose a player intentionally exposes his hand in order to get a read on his opponent, who has already made a bet (ala doyle brunson's tactic described in S/S)?

My own answer to my question...

In a T, he would finish the hand and then receive a time penalty. This is EXACTLY what the rule is there for. It is NOT there to penalize someone who mistakenly turns up his hand prematurely or drops a card etc. Exposing a card may NOT (within the rules) be used to solicit information.
Most people seem to think this makes his hand DEAD if it's in a tournament, and actually, I thought this too. However, these two rules quotes lead me to believe that the true interpretation of the rule might be different. Anyway, hoping you could shed some light on this....

The reply from my friend, whose word I basically consider to be the final word...

The hand is never dead. Strict time penalties may be incurred after the hand anything from a verbal warning of "if this happens again" to 10, 20, 30 min away from the table. Subsequent violations would 86 the player from the event after the proper sequence of penalties.

************

It's a common misconception that exposing your hand in a tournament kills your hand. Simply not true. I know there are a few cardrooms who would kill the hand, but as far as I am concerned, they are simply wrong. It may incur a penalty, that's all. In a ring game, there's nothing to be done about it except finish the hand with your cards known to the other players.

al

[Al_Capone_Junior]

I don't consider exposing your hand to get a read on an opponent (only while heads up) to be an angle shot. Doyle described this tactic in S/S and I think it's perfectly acceptable, tho I can't say I have ever actually done it myself, nor do I plan to. I see people do it in live games, and it's perfectly fine with me. Unfortunately, you can't do it in tournaments.

If there are multiple players left with chips I think it IS unethical to expose your hand on purpose, and if I was in charge you would be penalized in some way for sure, tournament or ring game.

al

[Luv2DriveTT]

[ QUOTE ]
If there are multiple players left with chips I think it IS unethical to expose your hand on purpose, and if I was in charge you would be penalized in some way for sure, tournament or ring game.

[/ QUOTE ]

And what with the penalty be? This has happened to me before, the first step of the penalty should be to expose the hand to the entire table if the player exposed his hand to less than the remaining players in the hand.

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[Al_Capone_Junior]

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=1813019&page=0&view=c ollapsed&sb=5&o=14&vc=1

the rules and penalties are discussed in this post in this thread.

For violations during a multi-way hand, with several players with money left (in a ring game), the only penalty I would give at first would be to call them away from the table and give them a verbal warning. It's unethical, but you can't kill their hand or really kick them out after one violation.

after that tho, it's the cattle prod for sure.

al

[Luv2DriveTT]

[ QUOTE ]
after that tho, it's the cattle prod for sure.

al

[/ QUOTE ]

nh.