Influencing Play Rule

I am just wondering about all your thoughts in this Rule. Recently many players have been calling hands that they do not have like saying they have 2 pair when they are on a draw and saying they have a pair when they have a monster. Either increasing or decreasing their expectation. Most casinos have a non influencing the play rule. I am just wondering if you think of this non influencing the play rule. Should they allow it or not. Do you think calling out hands you do not have has any place in poker. Should the rule be changed. Should we be able to say anything at a poker game. I have always been taught from the backroom players I respected that if I had to use this type of strategy that I should not be playing poker. But has times changeg should the rule be changed.

[Clarkmeister]

Allowing miscalling of hands is bad simply because it very likely intimidates and potentially embarasses novice players.

As far as I'm concerned its angle shooting, plain and simple.

[PokerBabe(aka)]

Hi Hosh- long time no see. How are u? /forums/images/icons/smile.gif I am not 100% clear on the rule you described, but I don't see how one can prevent a player from talking. I think lying is still allowed in poker. I do agree with Clarkmeister that there is NO NEED to behave poorly, but intimidating and embarassing players happens all the time, and if it's part of a "strategy" or an "angle shoot", well...that is just poker. On the other hand, I agree that this calling out of hands can certainly present a dilemma to ANY player, and can be seen as "influencing play". Perhaps you would prefer that one simply "influence" with chips rather than words.......BUT is that all there is to poker? Some of the greatest poker players use verbal remarks to "influence play". Shall we now say there is "no talking" in poker? /forums/images/icons/wink.gif PokerBabe.

[bernie]

some people, mostly the fogies, use that same argument against checkraising. ive heard it many times from the old farts.

noone is forcing any player to take them at their word. kind of like a bluff bet. if theyre in the hand, i dont mind it. if theyre out of the hand, then they shouldnt be allowed to say anything about the hand. only the players involved.

btw. i never talk about my hand during the hand, but if someone wants to yap at me who's in the hand, that yap, tone or speech patten, can give you some information about their hand. not necesarily what theyre saying, but how theyre saying it. and it's great when it backfires on em.

b

[Tommy Angelo]

Artichoke Joe's has a rule left over from lowball days that I've never seen anywhere else. If you overcall your hand (state that you have a better hand than you actually do) and the opponent mucks his hand, and you cannot produce a hand at least as good as announced, your opponent gets the pot. (You are allowed to undercall your hand.)

The right way to play the showdown at AJ's is, as soon as the opponent says a hand that beats yours, muck. Fast.

I think this is a good rule.

Tommy

[Clarkmeister]

[Ray Zee]

if its at the showdown its illegal. during the play of the hand its just poker talk, and nothing wrong with that.

[D. Andrew]

...but I don't see how one can prevent a player from talking.
Easy, make a rule against it. Penalize those who break the rule.

I think lying is still allowed in poker.
Just because it is accepted in public poker rooms, does not mean that is is allowed in all poker places. I'm sure many home games do not allow lying.

...that is just poker.
I don't buy it at all.

Shall we now say there is "no talking" in poker?
Yes. There should be no talking during the play of a hand.

Just because something has been done for a long time does not make it right.

[Jimbo]

D. Andrew commented as below:

...but I don't see how one can prevent a player from talking.
Easy, make a rule against it. Penalize those who break the rule. It might be more useful to suggest a feasible penalty to implement in these circumstances. I cannot think of any can you?

I think lying is still allowed in poker.
Just because it is accepted in public poker rooms, does not mean that is is allowed in all poker places. I'm sure many home games do not allow lying. You are kidding here right? Like, "There's no crying in baseball."


...that is just poker.
I don't buy it at all. At least the price is right.

Shall we now say there is "no talking" in poker?
Yes. There should be no talking during the play of a hand. And you justify this how? We are not talking about golfers on the putting green here.

Just because something has been done for a long timedoes not make it right. Finally something I agree with completely!!

Perhaps I interpreted the original post somewhat differently than some of the responders. I am assuming that during the hand before showdown someone makes a statement such as "I have the nuts" or "I cannot believe I missed this hand." Why would this elicit a penalty, perhaps he just overlooked his hand or the board or both. Now if you mean at the showdown lying about your hand in order to get a player to muck a winner then in my opinion that becomes an angle which should not be tolerated by whoever is running the game but is probably allowed unless explicitly forbidden in the posted rules.

Jimbo

[Ulysses]

A few months ago at AJs I had AKh against a habitual angle-shooter's AdKs. Flop comes two low hearts and one diamond. Turn is a rag diamond. River comes a last rag diamond. I had put my opponent correctly on AK or AQ and bet the river. He raises. I'm pretty confident he doesn't have a pair and he definitely doesn't have the flush, but I don't think he'll lay down, so I just call. He says "FLUSH" as he turns over and I turbo-muck. The player didn't object as I was pushed the pot, since he "knew he was beat" when I called his raise.

[bernie]

i think you should be disciplined enough to wait and see his cards turned over before mucking. and if he causes you to fold based on what he 'says', then its your own fault.

sorry, but holdem is a game of deception and misrepresentation. whether by way of betting or spoken word when involved in a hand. but at showdown, cardspeak and the truth comes out.

b

I completely agree with Ray. However, I do think you have to be careful about showdown penalties, as there is a big difference between angle-shooting and honestly misreading your hand. Or what about when a dealer misreads your hand? I'd be OK playing in a room with the Artichoke Joe's penalty, but I can see lots of special circumstances coming up.

As for talking during the hand, there's no way I'd play in a place where you couldn't talk during the hand. Banter between players, be it about the hand or not, is one of the things that makes poker enjoyable.

This discussion reminds me of a hand I played a few months ago. I'm UTG with AK, raise preflop, and a solid regular who I knew and was friendly with calls me. Flop comes A66, and I check-raise the solid regular, who looks at me, smiles and says, "What's your kicker?" I laugh, knowing that we both know I have him beat, and say smiling "a three -- honest." He smiles and mucks (he said he had ATs). A guy totally uninvolved with the hand all of the sudden shouts "Collusion!" and starts arguing frantically with the dealer that we were colluding together. If scooting was allowed in this room, I would have given the other player half of that pot just to see what this conspiricy theorist would have done.

Anyway, point is, the regular and I were just having fun with each other, and even though we were talking about the hand, I see no reason for making that sort of banter illegal.

[D. Andrew]

First, let me state that this is my opinion and we all know about opinions.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
...but I don't see how one can prevent a player from talking.
Easy, make a rule against it. Penalize those who break the rule. It might be more useful to suggest a feasible penalty to implement in these circumstances. I cannot think of any can you?

[/ QUOTE ]
I think something akin to using foul language would be appropriate. Most cardrooms have rules posted. I do not know how they are enforced, but I do know that they have rules, and enforce them is some way.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
I think lying is still allowed in poker.
Just because it is accepted in public poker rooms, does not mean that is is allowed in all poker places. I'm sure many home games do not allow lying. You are kidding here right? Like, "There's no crying in baseball."

[/ QUOTE ]
Nope, not kidding.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
...that is just poker.
I don't buy it at all. At least the price is right.

[/ QUOTE ]
LOL. I do not like this excuse. Forms of this are used in many areas. "Thats just the way it is" /forums/images/icons/smile.gif


</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
Shall we now say there is "no talking" in poker?
Yes. There should be no talking during the play of a hand. And you justify this how? We are not talking about golfers on the putting green here.

[/ QUOTE ]
When I first typed this I was thinking more along the lines that 'there should be no talking about the hand being played during the playing of the hand'. You brought to light my inability to express myself clearly. However, now I am thinking along the lines of my original statement. Most physical games (football) include much noise, most mental games (chess) include very little noise. Poker requires mental thought and concentration. Games like this are usually better played in a quiet setting.

While I agree that my view is different than what is established, I believe that poker would be better as a game following my view. I understand that socializing is also an important aspect, but can't we socialize inbetween hands?

[Clarkmeister]

I like the AJ rule. Other rules I like:

Checking across your cards with chips in your hand is a bet.

Verbally saying something like "I check raise" when checking while being first to act is verbally binding.

No one involved in the hand can say anything about the hand while the hand is in play. I do believe that observers noting a miscall of a hand at showdown by a dealer should speak up.

[HDPM]

People who supply the profit in poker don't necessarily want to play in a chess tournament atmosphere. Not the right way to go IMO.

[Clarkmeister]

Nor is letting them get intimidated and bullied by people basically heckling them during a hand. The first night a new player mucks incorrectly because of bad info is likely to be the last night that person plays poker.

[bernie]

"Games like this are usually better played in a quiet setting."

this isnt chess, its a cardroom. and a quiet setting wouldnt necesarily draw some of the donators....
what do i first think when i see a table with noone talking, but having their concentration faces on? a tough table that i probably dont want to play on. im guessing that you dont play live much, or youd see the added benefits of talking during a hand about whatever. imploring an only talk between hands rule is ridiculous. i can just see the advertisiment for that room. with the soft sound of mozart in the background as the guy on the board comes to you and quietly whispers that your table is ready....yeah right


"While I agree that my view is different than what is established, I believe that poker would be better as a game following my view. I understand that socializing is also an important aspect, but can't we socialize inbetween hands?"

i dont think you do understand how important the socializing aspect is to a 'casual' player and how it can profit for better players. if noone talks much, the donators can tend to tighten up. boy, thatd be great wouldnt it? now they have nothing to do but concentrate on their hand and try and play better against the table now.

"Most physical games (football) include much noise, most mental games (chess) include very little noise. Poker requires mental thought and concentration."

you should have added that it requires mental thought and concentration in a room with loudmouth drunks, gambling addicts, people blowing smoke up yer ass, table coaches screeching about badbeats and older players leaving snailtrails from their chipstack to the pot. if your not up to playing in this environment, id suggest playing online only with the chat feature turned off. the social aspect is nothing like a chess match. it's cutthroat with 8 or 9 other players.

just......................some ideas...

b

[baggins]

HDPM, i agree. Try getting live ones to play in a poker game where the floor is walking around constantly 'Shhhshh'-ing people around. poker is a game of talking, and conversation. ask tommy.

[MMMMMM]

While I personally prefer not to engage in this sort of nonsense at the table, I don't see how talking about your hand during the hand is angle-shooting. Angle-shooting is using a loophole in some rule to take UNFAIR ADVANTAGE of your opponent. On the other hand, misdirecting your opponent about the strength (or lack thereof) of your hand is simply poker, whether it is accomplished by sighing, betting forcefully, bluffing, squirming uncomfortably, or saying something. It's all part of the game and I don't think we can make rules like you can only speak the truth about your hand.

At the showdown it's different because all acts and play are over and it's time to show the goods.

[HDPM]

Agree with that. The things we're talking about can usually be addressed w/ common sense. Problem is that sense isn't common enough, let alone common sense.