muck after the river rules?

[gsusguy]

rules question: I'm disagreeing with a friend on this one. If someone bets on the river, and you call. They flip over the cards, and you see that you are beat. Do you have to flip over your cards or can you muck them? If someone wants to see your cards, do you have to show them? I say you don't have to show them unless the casino wants you to because they fear collusion. My friend says that it's proper etiquette to show no matter what because that's about the only time others can get free information on you. Who's right and where can I get official information on this rule?

[hachkc]

I believe that the winner is entitled to look at your cards because you called; he may not ask to though.

[Iamafish]

No...the bettor shows first, the caller may choose to muck if he has the loosing hand.

[wingsfan]

People muck on the river all the time. You only have to show a) if you're the one that threw a bet out and nobody wants to show first or b) to win a hand.

[jon_1van]

Any player can muck at any time. If I make a complete bluff at a pot. Someone calls. I DON'T HAVE TO SHOW IF I MUCK. I just have to forgo any chance to win the pot

[Lottery Larry]

There's usually a casino rule, to help fight collusion, that any hand that calls the final bet can be forced to be turned over, if someone at the table (doesn't have to be in the showdown) requests it. It's not considered polite to do this, so don't over-use it.

Whether you want this rule in your home game is up to you.

[Stew]

[ QUOTE ]
There's usually a casino rule, to help fight collusion, that any hand that calls the final bet can be forced to be turned over, if someone at the table (doesn't have to be in the showdown) requests it. It's not considered polite to do this, so don't over-use it.

Whether you want this rule in your home game is up to you.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is correct and let me just take the time to say right here and now since everyone gives me a hard time for being such a hardass is that I see absolutely no point of having this rule in a "friendly" home game. In fact, in my touranment rules, I have it specifically written that a player must show his cards to claim a pot at showdown and that the last agressor must show first and any others wishing to show after to claim the pot may. If there is no agressor on that round, then the first person to the left of the button shows first.

If a player chooses not to show to claim a pot, then he may muck his cards, show one card, show all, whatever. But that player has no obligation to show any cards, even if asked and if asked, that request will not be honored by the TD's.

Here is how I have this written in my rules:

1. To be eligible to win a hand at showdown, you must show your cards face-up on the table to claim the pot. If you muck your cards, then you forfeit your right to win the pot.
2. The first player to show his cards will be the last player to initiate a bet or raise. If the caller or callers wish to show their hands, they may. If they do not, then they forfeit any right to be eligible for the pot. Unshown hands remain unshown.
3. If there is no betting action on the last round, the first person to the left of the button is required to show their cards first.
4. Cards Speak: The dealer will assist in reading a player’s hand, but the cards must be shown.
5. Verbal declarations as to the contents of a hand at showdown are not binding, deliberately miscalling a hand with the intent of causing another player to discard a winning hand is unethical and may result in forfeiture of the pot. Cards must be shown at showdown to claim a pot.
6. If a player chooses to show one card or cards to anyone at the table then all players at the table have the right to see the shown card(s).

[smoore]

Stew nailed it. IWTSTH f'in sucks in a home game.... *unless* you think people might be colluding, in which case you should institute it.

edit: oh yeah... if someone pulls IWTSTH on me I try to shoot them deep into the muck as fast as I can. I know it's an angle but I don't care.