I know some of you Can't Stand Hellmuth, but sometimes, he amazes me. [Archive]

Goodie54

02-25-2005, 11:57 AM

I know that this forum and others have made quite a habit of bashing Hellmuth, but he's one of only a few players that I've seen make moves that simply amaze me. Negreanu, Lederer and Esphandieri (sp) are some of the others.

Case in Point. Battle of the Authors the other night.

Sklansky limps on the button with KJ, he's explained why in other threads, Phil completes in SB with QJ and Caro raises to 30K with J6o in the BB. Sklansky folds and Phil thinks and puts Caro in for the rest, saying later he had a feeling Caro was going to show 7 2 or something.

I thought this was quite an amazing read considering all indications were that Caro had been playing a tight game up till then.

What does everyone else think?

Peace

Goodie

jojobinks

02-25-2005, 12:47 PM

i thought it was an interesting play too. i think hellmuth is a douchebag, but i agree that he does some really interesting things. not the least of which is self-destructing in the "by the book" episode

riffraff

02-25-2005, 01:11 PM

Phil wins that thing hands down if Doyle doesn't spike his ace on the turn. What are you going to do when you trap your opponent in a 900k+ pot and he sucks out? Hellmuth remains one of the best 5 players on the planet.

ttleistdci

02-25-2005, 01:12 PM

I agree...great read by Phil.

I thought one of the most interesting things was watching Caro play. How does someone who literally wrote the book on poker tells control his own tells and extract information from others at the table? Interesting stuff to watch.

CCass

02-25-2005, 01:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Phil wins that thing hands down if Doyle doesn't spike his ace on the turn. What are you going to do when you trap your opponent in a 900k+ pot and he sucks out? Hellmuth remains one of the best 5 players on the planet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hellmuth doesn't get to ~900K except that he had sucked out on Caro/Sexton/etc. 4 times earlier in the broadcast.

And I am not a Hellmuth basher, his 9 bracelets speak for themselves. But he isn't as good as he thinks he is.

lucas9000

02-25-2005, 01:31 PM

i think i'll be impressed when he makes it back to a final table without being invited.

DyessMan89

02-25-2005, 01:31 PM

jojobinks

02-25-2005, 01:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
i think i'll be impressed when he makes it back to a final table without being invited.

[/ QUOTE ]

like he has 2 (3?) times in the first two seasons?

lucas9000

02-25-2005, 01:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i think i'll be impressed when he makes it back to a final table without being invited.

[/ QUOTE ]

like he has 2 (3?) times in the first two seasons?

[/ QUOTE ]

but what has he done lately? that's why i said "makes it back"

Goodie54

02-25-2005, 02:13 PM

I'm fairly confident that no one could possibly be as good as Hellmuth thinks he is.

That aside, he still makes some plays that amaze me.

Peace

Goodie

Grindin'

02-25-2005, 02:25 PM

I think it's fair to say Hellmuth suffers from severe FPS. That's fancy play syndrome to those who were wondering. He over-slowplays and trys to trap all the time and sure it looks amazing when it works well but giving your opponent freecards so often, you're bound to have it bite you in the rear. When Hellmuth pushed all-in on the flop against Brunson with an open-ended straight draw, Brunson called with second pair without any hesitation. Why? Because he knew if Phil had any hand, he'd be slowplaying it! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

jojobinks

02-25-2005, 02:26 PM

daryn

02-25-2005, 02:32 PM

somehow it's not. even though the guy plays drastically fewer tourneys than he used to, people want to see results in the last month or so or else you're out of the club!

3rdEye

02-25-2005, 02:33 PM

Hellmuth is very good. Funniest line of that episode, though, was when Phil's cell phone started ringing, and VVP says, "It must be Phil's ego calling."

TeenerBall

02-25-2005, 02:42 PM

That was hilarious. But seriously, I was kind of disappointed in Sexton's showing. Has anyone read Shuffle up and Deal? If so, is it worth reading?

Grindin'

02-25-2005, 02:43 PM

It hasn't been released yet.

Russ McGinley

02-25-2005, 02:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm fairly confident that no one could possibly be as good as Hellmuth thinks he is.

[/ QUOTE ]

Josh Arieh, aka Phil Hellmuth Jr. (Jr.)

daryn

02-25-2005, 03:08 PM

hmm. i don't get it.

Grindin'

02-25-2005, 03:17 PM

Why is everyone hating on my boy Josh for? I for one think he's a pretty skilled poker player who's full of gamble. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Army Eye

02-25-2005, 03:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i think i'll be impressed when he makes it back to a final table without being invited.

[/ QUOTE ]

like he has 2 (3?) times in the first two seasons?

[/ QUOTE ]

but what has he done lately? that's why i said "makes it back"

[/ QUOTE ]

How about Howard Lederer? Phil Ivey? They haven't made a WPT since season ONE! Their game has fallen off even worse than Hellmuth's. Oh my god.. terrible

four eight suited

02-25-2005, 03:55 PM

I believe Mike Caro's play with J6o is straight out of sklansky's TPFAP. It is the whole bet 2-5x the pot in BB facing limpers, especially the button and little blind limpers. It makes little sense for the button or SB just to limp with a huge hand hoping for a raise, thus a much wider gap for Caro to raise big with a less than marginal hand

Grindin'

02-25-2005, 03:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i think i'll be impressed when he makes it back to a final table without being invited.

[/ QUOTE ]

like he has 2 (3?) times in the first two seasons?

[/ QUOTE ]

but what has he done lately? that's why i said "makes it back"

[/ QUOTE ]

How about Howard Lederer? Phil Ivey? They haven't made a WPT since season ONE! Their game has fallen off even worse than Hellmuth's. Oh my god.. terrible

[/ QUOTE ]
Phil Ivey is too busy dominating the cash games, though he's paying more focus to tournaments now. I know you're being sarcastic but just wanted to add that Phil Hellmuth is more of a one-dimensional player, he does well in tournaments but is very weak in the side games.

Army Eye

02-25-2005, 04:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Phil Ivey is too busy dominating the cash games, though he's paying more focus to tournaments now. I know you're being sarcastic but just wanted to add that Phil Hellmuth is more of a one-dimensional player, he does well in tournaments but is very weak in the side games.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hellmuth's pretty much in the same boat, only caring to play in the big $10k events. It's just amazing to me that some people take such a small sample size of large-field tournaments, and try to draw any conclusions. 2+2 posters are generally well-informed but not so much in this particular forum /images/graemlins/smile.gif

JoeTable

02-25-2005, 04:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Phil wins that thing hands down if Doyle doesn't spike his ace on the turn. What are you going to do when you trap your opponent in a 900k+ pot and he sucks out? Hellmuth remains one of the best 5 players on the planet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hellmuth doesn't get to ~900K except that he had sucked out on Caro/Sexton/etc. 4 times earlier in the broadcast.

And I am not a Hellmuth basher, his 9 bracelets speak for themselves. But he isn't as good as he thinks he is.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let's not forget that Sexton LET Helmuth suck out on him and that he was pot committed against Caro and was completely justified in winning that hand.

JoeTable

02-25-2005, 04:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think it's fair to say Hellmuth suffers from severe FPS. That's fancy play syndrome to those who were wondering. He over-slowplays and trys to trap all the time and sure it looks amazing when it works well but giving your opponent freecards so often, you're bound to have it bite you in the rear. When Hellmuth pushed all-in on the flop against Brunson with an open-ended straight draw, Brunson called with second pair without any hesitation. Why? Because he knew if Phil had any hand, he'd be slowplaying it! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Brunson was going to see the river on that hand no matter how Helmuth played it. That wasn't a read by any stretch.

MonkeeMan

02-25-2005, 06:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Why is everyone hating on my boy Josh for? I for one think he's a pretty skilled poker player who's full of gamble.

[/ QUOTE ]

Might have something to do with the way he obnoxiously berates anyone else who gambles with him. Classy he ain't.

toots

02-25-2005, 06:16 PM

I haven't read that many people assert that Hellmuth is a poor player. Indeed, I think he's a great Hold 'Em player.

The reason he gets trashed so much is...

Well, if neither you nor he can figure out why, then the problem's sort of self-referential.

TimTimSalabim

02-25-2005, 06:21 PM

My favorite was when Sexton said Phil was looking for a full-length mirror so he could go talk to himself. Classic.

riffraff

02-25-2005, 07:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Phil wins that thing hands down if Doyle doesn't spike his ace on the turn. What are you going to do when you trap your opponent in a 900k+ pot and he sucks out? Hellmuth remains one of the best 5 players on the planet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hellmuth doesn't get to ~900K except that he had sucked out on Caro/Sexton/etc. 4 times earlier in the broadcast.

And I am not a Hellmuth basher, his 9 bracelets speak for themselves. But he isn't as good as he thinks he is.

[/ QUOTE ]

The "suckout" vs Sexton was nothing of the sort. Mike was either too timid or thought he could get more action from Phil on the river. The others happened after Phil raised (vs opponents who haven't even looked at their cards) and called the all-in re-raises because he was PRICED IN. Even as a 40/60 dog Phil has to call 40k more on a 200k+ pot.

Grindin'

02-25-2005, 09:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Phil Ivey is too busy dominating the cash games, though he's paying more focus to tournaments now. I know you're being sarcastic but just wanted to add that Phil Hellmuth is more of a one-dimensional player, he does well in tournaments but is very weak in the side games.

[/ QUOTE ]
Hellmuth's pretty much in the same boat, only caring to play in the big $10k events. It's just amazing to me that some people take such a small sample size of large-field tournaments, and try to draw any conclusions. 2+2 posters are generally well-informed but not so much in this particular forum /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
I never challenged Hellmuth's performance in tournaments whatsoever. He's without a doubt on any top ten tournament performers list for Hold'em. I'm just stating what Mason Malmuth said about Stu Ungar, he doesn't consider him a great POKER player because he only excelled in tournaments not the side games. I'm just using Mason's definition of a pinnacle poker player.

CCass

02-26-2005, 12:32 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Phil wins that thing hands down if Doyle doesn't spike his ace on the turn. What are you going to do when you trap your opponent in a 900k+ pot and he sucks out? Hellmuth remains one of the best 5 players on the planet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hellmuth doesn't get to ~900K except that he had sucked out on Caro/Sexton/etc. 4 times earlier in the broadcast.

And I am not a Hellmuth basher, his 9 bracelets speak for themselves. But he isn't as good as he thinks he is.

[/ QUOTE ]

The "suckout" vs Sexton was nothing of the sort. Mike was either too timid or thought he could get more action from Phil on the river. The others happened after Phil raised (vs opponents who haven't even looked at their cards) and called the all-in re-raises because he was PRICED IN. Even as a 40/60 dog Phil has to call 40k more on a 200k+ pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was not implying that Phil made bad plays (he was "priced in"), merely that he had the worst hand and caught cards to win. And everybody "catches cards" on occasion, I am not singling Phil out here.

daryn

02-26-2005, 02:36 AM

ok but clearly a different to call with a worse hand, getting proper odds, and hit your card, than to be in a bad spot for all your chips.

masse75

02-26-2005, 02:53 AM

I still love the fact that in poker you can say "he sucked me out..." and keep a straight face. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

belloc

02-26-2005, 02:59 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Hellmuth is very good. Funniest line of that episode, though, was when Phil's cell phone started ringing, and VVP says, "It must be Phil's ego calling."

[/ QUOTE ]

Wait right there. Nothing Vinnie says is ever funny. EVER. Get that straight.

3rdEye

02-26-2005, 05:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hellmuth is very good. Funniest line of that episode, though, was when Phil's cell phone started ringing, and VVP says, "It must be Phil's ego calling."

[/ QUOTE ]

Wait right there. Nothing Vinnie says is ever funny. EVER. Get that straight.

[/ QUOTE ]

The guy's annoying, but every once in a while he says something hilarious.

m bozeman

02-26-2005, 06:02 PM

Vince is annoying. The only reason he has that job is because Shanna is married to his brother.

WillMagic

02-26-2005, 08:48 PM

From his latest CardPlayer article:

Just to note, at this point the blinds are 25/50 and he has 225 chips.

"In any case, a couple of hands later, the dealer mistakenly dealt my second holecard (the 3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif) faceup; thus, it was replaced with another card. This turned my unplayable Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif into a playable K /images/graemlins/heart.gif Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. So, I went from folding my hand to raising, making it $150 to go. One player called me. After a flop of 10-8-8 , I checked and my opponent bet my last $75, which I quickly called. I called because K-Q might have been the best hand, but even if my opponent had me beat — for example, with a small pair — I had to call $75 to try to win the $450 pot. My opponent had A-6, and when the board blanked out, I was eliminated."

Yup...this guy wrote a poker book. I know, amazing.

Will