What to do UTG in PL with AA or KK?

Say you have been dealt AA or KK in a 5/5 PL game. It's terrible when you raise the pot and the other players get excited and all call, you're in for trouble. Should I just call and hope to get raised so I can reraise? It would also be awful if many people call after me and there is no reraise.
Lately I've been limping with them and if I don't get a chance to reraise, often I'm forced to muck them if the flop is threatening.

[Greg (FossilMan)]

I avoid the problem by raising about 20-40% of the time preflop. That way, they never put me on AA. ;-)

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[Ignatius]

The situations where you can make a case for limp-reraising w/ aces UTG are pretty rare: You would need a stack between 15 and 40 BBs (so that you can get at least 1/4 in preflop) and you obviously have to be very sure that it would get raised. The problem is that you will give your hand away (esp. when you're UTG), so when the money is even moderatly deep (50+ BBs), you're virtually always better off raising.

Generally, if you feel that you don't get enough action on your raises, this is usually a sign that you're playing too tight and/or passive. Instead of resorting to limp-reraising, better put in an occasional raise with suited connectors or small pairs to provide cover for your premium hands.

cu

Ignatius

[Ray Zee]

just bring it in for the raise or raise the opening bettor. after the flop you get to play your hand. unless you get lucky you arent going to get it all in before the flop and you dont need to. with some flops lead out and with others check or check raise.

"Instead of resorting to limp-reraising, better put in an occasional raise with suited connectors or small pairs to provide cover for your premium hands."

In the long run isn't this advertising too expensive? Two things seem to happen. 1) your hand gets reraised one or more times. 2) you miss the flop are bet into and have to fold. In most cases no one sees the hand you are trying to "mix" things up with. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[Lurker]

"In the long run isn't this advertising too expensive?"

Absolutely not. It all depends on the stack sizes. Good no limit players like to play in games where the stacks are deep (200xBB or more) and there is plenty of room to hit the flop hard and get paid off.

If you get reraised too hard when deceptively raising with suited connectors, then fold. But if you get a limit reraise or even a pot-sized reraise when the stacks are deep enough, then call and look to hit the flop hard. You can even raise and reraise with 5-7 suited and turn a profit in the right conditions (okay, maybe only in 'perfect' conditions, but you get the point). Be smart enough to drop your top pair, middle kicker, and play for two pair, trips, a straight or a flush (or even a draw, especially with position) and take your opponent's entire stack.

The whole point is to be able to read your opponent's hand better than he can read yours. Be creative. Is he raising with A-K or a big pair? Reraise him before the flop and see what he does; if he flat calls, and you know that means A-K and not AA, then when the flop comes down all rags, bet HIM out or check-raise HIM out. No reason to think he hit the flop just because you missed. If you only raise with good cards, then your opponents will do this same kind of thing to you.

After you turn over 'rags' and scoop a 'lucky' pot a few times after reraising like this and you finally do pick up AA, you'll have a better time of getting it all in preflop.

You need deep money and the ability to outwit your opponents post-flop to play this way. Any clueless newbie knows to raise preflop with AA. The way you get his whole stack is by reading that big hand and getting a huge pay off on the flop when you hit your trip deuces and he overplays.

Best of luck.

L

[Greg (FossilMan)]

All very well said. That is the essence of what I am trying to do in every PL game.

And the need for a big stack, and to be against a few big stacks, is very important.

At Foxwoods the most common PL game is holdem with 5,5 blinds and $100 minimum buyin. Sometimes I've started the game and I'm against 3-5 players, none of whom have more than 200 in front of them. My style of play is DRAMATICALLY different then when there is somebody else who has 2-5 thousand (as I will typically have) on the table.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[Ignatius]

Lurker already gave an excellent answer, so let me just add a few things ...

> isn't this advertising too expensive?

This is not about advertising. Advertising is about image, here, your goal is to avoid giving away information. Even if you already have a loose image or if your opponents already know better and won't be fooled, you would still have to make those occasional raises with drawing hands and you would never show them unless you have to.

Also, when done properly, you're not supposed to lose money on them b/c of the asymmetry of information: while you can put the reraiser on a pretty narrow range of hands, he will often misread you, which gives you opportunities to steal and often allows you to create a big pot when you hit hard.

cu

Ignatius