KK with an A onboard HU

[hate]

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, UTG calls.

Flop: (5.50 SB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG calls.

Turn: (4.75 BB) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG checks, Hero checks.

River: (4.75 BB) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 5.75 BB

The raise on the flop was entirely by accident. Dude was LPP., after 41 hands, 70% VP$IP, pfr 0, TAF .55

I'm sorry about crossposting, but I didn't get much of an answer in micro. This hand positively baffles me.

[TripleH68]

[ QUOTE ]
The raise on the flop was entirely by accident. Dude was LPP.

[/ QUOTE ]

Were you going to fold to the flop bet? If villain holds an ace why would he bet into you on that flop?

[applej25]

Given your line: call the river.

Otherwise: bet the turn. You have little fear of a raise from an Ace and if he does raise he likely has a six and you can fold. If he just called I would check the river through.

[Nick C]

I think the flop raise has merits, if you think there's a good enough chance you're ahead, as it could get you to showdown more cheaply. (If your passive opponent has an ace, and there's a good chance he does, he may slow down anyway, fearing you have a better one.)

I think the turn check is all right. If you're ahead, there's probably not a big chance of getting outdrawn on this paired board (though there is some small chance your opponent was betting a straight draw on the flop or picked up a flush draw on the turn). And I doubt your opponent will fold an ace.

The consistent play, though, would have been to call the river. Your turn check did invite your opponent to bet again with something like 88, if that's what he had.

[hate]

Because he was so passive, I was planning on folding to the flop bet. That seems wrong. Calling is very wrong. Raising seems wrong, but maybe less wrong.

[applej25]

With all due respect, you have 41 hands on the guy. Thats hardly enough to assume he would only bet with an ace on this flop. Maybe he has a PP also and wanted to see if you would raise so he could go into passive mode and call down what he thinks is Aces up.

[TripleH68]

I think raising the flop is not a bad play at all. He may be testing you with a pp, but you have position. How about bet the turn and check behind on the river...since you are pretty confident he will not c-r?

[synbad13]

First, I think that you definately call the river. Since another ace came, it is less likely he has an ace, and more likely you have the best hand. I think if you are worried about an ace you check/call just like you did. I would always call the river though unless I have great reason not too... its a little mistake to spew a bet, but a much bigger one to fold a winner.

[hate]

I'm coming around to thinking that's the best plan, checking through at the river from a turn bet. I think I just got rattled by that misclick.

Also, no need to pussyfoot around with that with all due respect crap, I know I boned this up.

[wuwei]

There are some really great threads (http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Board=smallholdem&amp;Number=969383&amp; Forum=f3&amp;Words=&amp;Searchpage=0&amp;Limit=50&amp;Main=969383&amp; Search=true&amp;where=bodysub&amp;Name=43&amp;daterange=1&amp;newe rval=1&amp;newertype=y&amp;olderval=&amp;oldertype=&amp;bodyprev=# Post969383) in the archives here.

If all you have on the guy is 41 hands and you haven't really been observing his play closely, deciding he must have an A on the flop is not good. 41 hands can be very deceiving.

[applej25]

[ QUOTE ]
How about bet the turn and check behind on the river...since you are pretty confident he will not c-r?

[/ QUOTE ]

I could swear i already said that........... PLAGERIZER! /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[applej25]

Wow, are my posts invisible? Or is there an echo on this thread?

[wuwei]

[ QUOTE ]
Wow, are my posts invisible? Or is there an echo on this thread?

[/ QUOTE ]

What? Huh? Is someone talking?

[applej25]

LOL, well if you can't see this, than I guess you won't be offended by this: BLOW ME /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Disclaimer - this is obviously a joke so don't take it seriously.

[hate]

Thanks for that link, duder. Yeah yeah, I'm playing scared because I'm a prissy prissy pink pantie wearing pansy, and I know 41 hands isn't all that hot.

[wuwei]

This board is different than the link I posted, but I think without a stronger read that this player would only bet an A here your line is calling if he bets and betting if he checks. Show it down. Raising the flop can lead to some flailing about later on in the hand, and folding is pretty weak heads up.

[TripleH68]

[ QUOTE ]
This board is different than the link I posted, but I think without a stronger read that this player would only bet an A here your line is calling if he bets and betting if he checks. Show it down. Raising the flop can lead to some flailing about later on in the hand, and folding is pretty weak heads up.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very good archive thread. Enjoyed reading posts from regulars when they were "newbies." Another difference btw these hands is in this one the villain is UTG limper, not BB.

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
Calling is very wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really?

I'd oftentimes play the hand call/call/call.

[marching_on_together]

Sorry but this hand is badly played, you don't have enough info on the guy to judge his post flop play. He plays so many hands that his aggression stats are bound to be low unless he's a manic. All you really know is this guy is a very poor player and players who play poor pre-flop tend to play poor post flop. Why are you raising the flop the most likely sennarios are the flop missed him and he's bluffing, he has an ace, he has a PP, or as he plays so many hands he could of cought a 6 or a 3 or have some kind of straight draw. If he's on a bluff or has a lower PP you don't want him to fold in this small pot, also protecting your hand is not so important as again the pot is small plus unless he has the OESD i'm not really frightened of him drawing out on me as he does'nt have the odds to chase two pair on the turn. For me against a largely unknown poor player i call all the way and bet if checked to. Folding on the flop without a very strong read is poor as is folding the river.

[bernie]

What's the question?

You thinking of calling him down given his description?

What's so baffling about folding to a flop bet here against this type of opponent?

b

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
If villain holds an ace why would he bet into you on that flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because he's a predictable loose passive?

b

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
If villain holds an ace why would he bet into you on that flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

If he has a smaller pp, why would you raise? You don't want him to fold.

b

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
Calling is very wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

What cards is someone fearing that they feel they need to raise this flop HU? The overcard is already out there. Anything else, the guy is charging himself betting into you.

b

[marching_on_together]

[ QUOTE ]
What's the question?

You thinking of calling him down given his description?

What's so baffling about folding to a flop bet here against this type of opponent?

b

[/ QUOTE ]

40 odd hands is very not much to make dcisions about post-flop play even weak players will bet there PP here to represent the Ace.

[K C]

I haven't even taken the time to read the other posts here. One word though - ack!!! /images/graemlins/smile.gif Why did you fold this on the river? The guy isn't representing aces, and if he does have them, well it costs you one bet to win almost 6. In fact, a second ace on the river makes it less likely he's got one. I'd be playing this hand a lot more aggressively, and definitely calling on the river. You might lose this one but you'll make a lot more than you lose by playing kings aggressively against a single opponent, which is a big hand even with the aces on board.

KC
kingcobrapoker.com

[The-Matador]

You have GOT to call this river.

With two aces on board there is a 40% chance that nobody at the table was even dealt one.

He could be betting any PP here and you are geting 6-1. You only have to be right one in 6 times! Cripes.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
40 odd hands is very not much to make dcisions about post-flop play even weak players will bet there PP here to represent the Ace.

[/ QUOTE ]

online, probably. live, much easier to peg.

Even so, you don't raise this flop or anywhere unless you spike a K. then you raise the river.

b

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
You might lose this one but you'll make a lot more than you lose by playing kings aggressively against a single opponent,

[/ QUOTE ]

Not if you make him fold, you won't.

b

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
You have GOT to call this river.

With two aces on board there is a 40% chance that nobody at the table was even dealt one.

He could be betting any PP here and you are geting 6-1. You only have to be right one in 6 times! Cripes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even without the ace rivering Hero has to call, given that he checked the turn.

[hate]

I just read through Ed Miller's thread in the archives, and I'd completely been misplaying this line. His situation was a villain in the BB, not UTG like mine, and it's 3/6, not 1/2 which I think is much more aggressive, but the reasoning should be sound even then.

After most posters, I figured that the 1SB savings for raising on the flop, betting on the turn and checking through on the river would make more sense.

However, Ed was operating under the assumption that he wanted to see this through the river regardless of his flop raise being 3-bet, and he didn't want to be 3-bet, because he didn't trust the indicator that he was beaten.

Still, I think his point is valid, I want to see the river here, and I want to see it as cheaply as possible without risking 2SB for a possible 1SB savings on the flop, because I should be good here more than the 2.5BB I need to risk for 6.

Thanks for answering, everybody.