Does this forum need to split?

[SuitedSixes]

Most of the good arguments here come down to philosophical differences between $33 buy-in and under players and $55 and up buy-in players.

The amount of starting chips as well as the quality of opponent makes strategy different. Should we have a low buy-in forum and a high buy-in forum?

[The Yugoslavian]

Not only are there concepts that overlap (frankly, *all* concepts apply to all limits) but it's really not all that hard to tell who the 55+ posters are and 33- posters are. I like hearing the arguments from each camp. The only danger is that since most of the best players and/or posters play higher limits that their advice/play is applied misleadingly to the lower limits (I know I've done this in the past).

But, frankly, in order to get better you need to come to your own understanding of poker and SNG concepts. Every play is contextual and every limit has it's own texture and considerations. Hell, 33 and 11 are more different than most posters will admit/realize/say.

Yugoslav

[curtains]

The advice isnt usually misapplied to the lower limits. I worked my way up too just like everyone else, and I did it playing the way I do now.
I admit there are obviously some differences, but not nearly as many as people make there out to be.

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]

The advice isnt usually misapplied to the lower limits.


[/ QUOTE ]

Ummm. Yes, it is. Which doesn't necessarily devalue the advice.

[ QUOTE ]

I worked my way up too just like everyone else, and I did it playing the way I do now.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm glad you paid your dues. I'm currently trying to pay mine. I'm also not saying that you can't play the lower limits like you play the higher limits. It's simply not optimal.

[ QUOTE ]

I admit there are obviously some differences, but not nearly as many as people make there out to be.

[/ QUOTE ]

But more than you perhaps realize.

I'll stick by my statement that high buyin players' advice/plays/views can mislead beginning low limit players into picking up poor habits and/or misapplying concepts.

Yugoslav

[curtains]

Im sure you are right. But really I dont play THAT much differently in the higher and lower limits.

For example the AJo hand we are discussing, it MIGHT be correct for weaker players to fold it (although I bet that just opening allin would be superior).

[raptor517]

im not going to write a book about it here, but there are QUITE a few differences even between the 33 and 55 levels. from 11 to 22 to 33 the jump wont be as dramatic, but i would say the most strategic differences occur from the 33 to 55 and 109 to 215 levels. im actually considering spending a few days pumping out about 500 30+3s just to get an idea of how they are different /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[lorinda]

about 500 30+3s just to get an idea of how they are different

Be sure to do 250 at 10pm EST and 250 at 8am EST, it's two entirely different games.

Lori

[se2schul]

I like one forum just as it is.
I play $22s, but aspire to play higher. I think it's useful to see feedback for both high and low limits. I think it will help me progress to the higher limits faster.

[TheAmp]

Why split? the universe is ONE.

Needless to say, no-one is obligated to read all the posts anyhow.

[franco]

I'm just about ready to start playing 30s. Whats the difference in play between those two times?

thanks

[Elektrik]

Take a look at the difference between the Micro/Small/Mid-, High Stakes Holdem. Obviously, the fundamentals are the same at all of those limits. It is the myriad of small changes that must be made as one moves up that advocates a split in the forums.

[Paul2432]

I voted against a split. I think it is fairly easy to sort through the various posts. I also believe that while the indicated plays may be different at different levels, the concepts are not. Anyone who wants to excel in this game needs to understand the underlying concepts, which can be applied to any level. For example, suppose a play might be different in a 33 vs a 55. The nuances and subtleties of the situation that cause the play to be different are much more likely to be discussed in an unsplit forum. This discussion will deepen the understanding of the underlying concepts for all involved. In the future a 55 player may encounter a situation slightly different from the one discussed and be better equipped to parse the nuances into a correct decision. We all benefit from vigorous discussion.

Finally, while Party Poker NLHE S&Gs are the predominant focus here, people do play other sites and other games. This is the S&G forum, not the Party Poker NLHE S&G forum. We don't have separate forums for limit hold'em S&G or 7-stud S&G or PLO S&G, etc. We don't have separate forums for 6-player S&Gs on Stars or LHE S&G on Paradise. All of these have much greater differences than the difference between a 33 and 55 NLHE S&G at Party.

For the record I've played everything from 10+1 to 100+9. Currently playing 50+5.

Paul

[UMTerp]

I voted against the split as well.

In all honesty, about 75% of the posts on this forum are not even specific to buy-in level. The theory used for all questions with blinds at 100-200 and above is the exact same whether the SNG in question is a $5+$0.50 or a Step 5. In either case, the situation must be analyzed with ICM (if applicable), pot odds, folding equity, all that good stuff. The only thing that differs between the levels of SNG is the range of hands your opponent will push and call with. Your thought process should be the exact same in push/fold situations no matter what buy-in you're playing. The tricky part is putting your opponents on a range of hands. That's were the buy-in difference comes in. And a lot of the higher buy-in people on here don't seem to know the math anyway.

I will admit that the first three or four levels of a SNG is drastically different between buy-in levels (i.e. an early open-push isn't necessarily terrible with AA or KK in a $10+$1, but you'd obviously want to get a little more value out of a hand like that at a higher level, because you would rarely get a customer if you pushed.) But the first few rounds aren't where the money is made on a SNG anyway. It's understanding end-game situations.

And I think the best threads on this forum are conceptual rather than situational anyway, and usually can apply to a wide range of buy-in levels.

[nyc999]

I voted no. As a $5 and $10 SNG player, when I post a hand/question, I look for and value the advice provided by some of the high-limit players.

That may sound selfish, as it may not really work the other way around, but I think its how many who read this forum develop their game and become better players.

[networkman]

[ QUOTE ]
about 500 30+3s just to get an idea of how they are different

Be sure to do 250 at 10pm EST and 250 at 8am EST, it's two entirely different games.

Lori

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, this is so true. Unfortunately I hardly get to play at Party in Primetime (I'm in the UK). I play weekdays for a couple hours at about 1 PM EST. thats as soon as I get home from work but before my wife gets home /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Once or twice a week I'll play in primetime, all I can say is "primetime is SWEET!" /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[microbet]

I'm against. Buyer beware as far as applying concepts that aren't appropriate to a particular game. I think the concepts are the same and to play optimally you need to consider all options.

There is certainly a difference between levels ON AVERAGE, but each table is unique. I have played tables at the same buyin, that started at the same time that were absolutely night and day.

Number of chips is certainly a significant difference, but in that regard I would think it would be more logical to split the forum by Party vs. Stars, not that I would favor splitting it that way.

Really the reason I wouldn't want the forum to split is that I have gotten familiar with many different posters on either side of the $33/$55 divide and I wouldn't want to see the community split up.

[UMTerp]

[ QUOTE ]
Buyer beware as far as applying concepts that aren't appropriate to a particular game. I think the concepts are the same and to play optimally you need to consider all options.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. You might call in a $11 where you'd fold in a $215 (or vice versa), but the thought process would be very similar in both cases.

SNGs are structured so that there are a LOT of similarities as you move throughout the levels, particularly as blinds escalate. I dno't think splitting the forum would make a whole lot of sense, and if the forum were to split, there'd probably be quite a bit of fraudulent advice given on the lower level forum, as the more experienced players may never even see most of the posts there.

[SuitedSixes]

First off, I don't think splitting is in anyone's best interest. What the forum really needs is to have the/a FAQ back. I sent a PM to Mat Sklansky this week asking what needed to happen to get it, or another one back. He has not responded. When, and if he does, I'd be glad to put something together with everybody's help.

I only brought the notion of a split up because there are many instances where there are times that a LBI player is arguing the merits of folding a hand like JJ to min raise in the SB where that is probably the correct play at the $11s but the wrong play at the $215s.

I think it would be a shame for the LBI players to lose the knowledge that is freely shared by the Irieguys, Eastbays, Dalimans, Gigabets, etc.

[curtains]

"I only brought the notion of a split up because there are many instances where there are times that a LBI player is arguing the merits of folding a hand like JJ to min raise in the SB where that is probably the correct play at the $11s but the wrong play at the $215s."


Folding JJ to a min-raise from the SB? See this is the stuff I just don't get, I can imagine no situation in an $11 buyin where this makes any sense at all.

I think oftentimes it's not the buyin level of the tournament that changes the play, but the skill level of the person playing that changes the strategy.

[SuitedSixes]

JJ was a bad example. How about AJo or 66?

Curtains, would you believe that in the first 3 Levels, I always fold JJ to any raise, have never played AJ (even suited) or 66 and still have an ITM over 40% and an ROI over 25% in the $22s? There is more than one way to skin a cat.

[curtains]

Yes of course you can win at the lower levels while not playing such hands. I understand this very well.

However I believe this style of play is likely sub-optimal and maybe costs you a few percentage points (maybe 1-3?) in ROI over the long haul. Also it should create bad habits should one ever be interested in moving up in levels.

I also understand why some players who are just starting out, should play very very tight for a while until they feel more comfortable, and then they should only play very tight. I usually begin by teaching people to play somewhat sub-optimally, and slowly train them out of it after the course of a few hundred tournaments.

(btw I often fold AJo and 66 in the SB to min raises in the $215s....AJo is not a hand to play out of position to a raiser. I fold AQo sometimes in the same situation as well, but JJ was going a bit too far. I play tighter than you think, I generally fold AQo in early position in the $215s.)

[valenzuela]

In some games the bubble play is awful, today ( ok i admit i play 110 cents sngs) I just had to battle my way throguh a bubble u wont see on the $11s ... we had a LAG but he had a big stack, he had a tight weak but he was the third short stack so his strategy was correct , we had a middle stack and he was IMO the second best player , and we had me who was the short stack and was never able to steal anything ( each time i raised i got called or reraised) I decided to tighten up ( i had 8x the bb when a pair of kings came to save my ass).
ANYWAY: IF A PLAYER IS NOT ABLE TO ADAPT HE WILL LOSE ANYWAY, BUBBLES ARE GOING TO BE DIFFERENT AND THE LEVEL OF BUY IN IS JUST ONE OF THE FACTORS( TIME OF PLAY, WHAT PLAYERS JOIN THE TOURNEY( U MIGHT JOIN A $33 WITH 6 WINNING PLAYER OR A $109 FULL OF FISHES), WHAT PLAYERS REACH THE BUBBLE( MAYBE IN A $55 TWO FISHES GET REALLY LUCKY) MY $0,02

[DrPhysic]

I think splitting 1TTF is a great idea. In fact, Why quit with only two? We could split 1 Table Tournament Forum into:

Amature SNG Forum
Professional SNG Forum
<30 Forum
30-109 Forum
215 and Big Step Forum
2+2 Game Forum
SNG Theory Forum
SNG Math Theory Forum
More than 4 table Forum
Thanks, I won one! Forum
OFFICIAL threads Forum
Sweat threads Forum, and
A Private Forum for anybody that wanted to start their own club!

Oh, and a special one for lessons on how to use collapsed and threaded modes.

Doc /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Big Limpin']

When i read the post title, i expected a split between HH situations and bankroll. I think that would be a prudent split.

[curtains]

Yeah I mainly just like the HH posts. The ones that are too general are too much for me.

[nokona13]

[ QUOTE ]
First off, I don't think splitting is in anyone's best interest. What the forum really needs is to have the/a FAQ back. I sent a PM to Mat Sklansky this week asking what needed to happen to get it, or another one back. He has not responded. When, and if he does, I'd be glad to put something together with everybody's help.

I only brought the notion of a split up because there are many instances where there are times that a LBI player is arguing the merits of folding a hand like JJ to min raise in the SB where that is probably the correct play at the $11s but the wrong play at the $215s.

I think it would be a shame for the LBI players to lose the knowledge that is freely shared by the Irieguys, Eastbays, Dalimans, Gigabets, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let me just voice a vote for not splitting. I can justify this mostly only on selfish grounds. I'm pretty new to tournies, very new to 2+2, and play 22s, 33s sometimes on weekends/thursday night, etc. If all the 109 and 215 players left the forum, there would be much much less good info being passed around for us noobs/low limit players (maybe that's the idea!! No need to educate new players!!). I guess if it was split I could just read the high limit forum for nugs, but I really appreciate the opportunity to have, say, curtains comment on my HH's, which obviously I couldn't post in a high limit forum.

On a less selfish note, I've noticed that a few (not SO many, but some) of the good threads here are started by low limit players with interesting HH or even general questions that attract the attention of the high-limit types and start really instructive threads. I think there might be less of that at a high limit forum, which I feel might end up being full only of complex statistical and theoretical posts, which are awesome but only make up half the goodness of this forum right now...

[eagle]

I was wondering.

Does anyone maintain really good numbers in the morning (EST)?