Multi Table struggles

[BobbyTheG]

I have been very successful at one table SNG and am a successful 10/20 player. I have been struggling mightily in Multitable events. My problem seems to be that my tight agressive style doesn't afford me enough chips with aggressive blind structures. I have won an event in Vegas when we stared with $6500 in chips, blinds started out $25/$50 with 30 minute rounds. My style worked great, slowly building a stack, double through once when I hit a set with QQ, etc. When it got down to the money, I opened up and used my stack to pound on players (FUN!). I normally do very well in these structures.

I find with the multitables with low chip counts ($1000 or $1500) like on Party Poker or Poker Stars and with the blind structures (15 minutes) that I have to basically get hit by the deck to get deep into the money. I have finished 2nd once with 300+ players, but most of tourneys follow the same pattern....win some hands, double through once or twice, have about $6000K when the blinds get to $300/$600, hit any kind of cold deck and end up moving all in. I usually get it in when I'm ahead, but if you do it enough, you are going to get clipped. Obviously, if you move all in with AQ, you are going to get knocked out by someone with A9 enough to drive you goofy. I end up having to push with A-x or a mid pair, or I get a big hand beat, but don't have enough chips to withstand it.

Should I be stealing late more? It's so hard to raise from cutoff with K4 and make it $1200 to go when you only have $6K, but maybe I'm just playing it too timid and need to just let it fly a little more. I'm really struggling in these smaller chip amount/fast rounds type buy ins and my confidence is a little shaken so I'm looking for some good solid simple advice.

This email rambles a little, so I'll put some questions up for discussion:
What is a good level to start aggressively stealing? I feel like it's maybe as early as $25/$50 but my gut says $100/$200.
What % of your stack should you risk a steal with?
What types of hands should I look to steal with? I'm thinking I would want to steal with hands that could improve like K-x suited or Q-T.

Sorry, these are pretty basic questions, but I'm looking for some input. I just can't seem to transfer my success from SNG, 10/20 and high chip/long round tourneys (which are tough to find) to the $33 multi's on the web.

I'd love to hear from those having success at these. Thanks.

[daveymck]

Your posting is basically my story too I play the conservative style and often find I am playing short stack game basically the second half of the second hour onwards.

What I am currently trying to do is change gears in the middle stages, as the tables tighten up trying to get a bit looser, build on the image you have built up the previous hour (of course when you get moved three tables over 10 hands your image is shot). Also I tend to go more timid if I try a steal and someone plays back at me as I then think everyone now will.

I do think our style of play has some advantages namely that it generally ensures we get into a position where the money is a possibility, the disadvantages are that unless a good run of cards come you are going to struggle to get higher in the tourne and we are always playing defensive poker, learning to mix it up is the key, but when you are a tight conservative player as a natural style I think it probably takes a lot of time to learn to be super agressive at the right times.

Currently I aam playing some rebuy tournies trying to play a lot of hands and play them agressively in the rebuy period, not sure if it working yet though.

[mrbaseball]

[ QUOTE ]
Should I be stealing late more?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes!

[ QUOTE ]
It's so hard to raise from cutoff with K4 and make it $1200 to go when you only have $6K, but maybe I'm just playing it too timid and need to just let it fly a little more

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually you HAVE to try and steal from the cutoff (unopened) with any 2. If the pot is already opened you pitch that crap as far as you can. I'd rather play K4 in an unopened pot on the cutoff than AJo in the same spot with 2 limpers or a preflop raiser. I think the problem that most people have with tournaments is that they put too much emphasis on the cards when positions and stack sizes are very often more important. Situations and the opportunites they present are far more important than the cards you hold.

Experiment. Raise in position regadless of the cards and see what happens. You might be surpised.

[ QUOTE ]
What is a good level to start aggressively stealing?

[/ QUOTE ]

Typically I play strictly the cards for the first 3 or 4 levels. Once you get past the first break is when I start looking for any opportunity or situation to steal.

[BobbyTheG]

Thanks for the input, I really appreciate it. I totally agree that I need to start playing position/situation more than my cards after the initial stages.

I hope to get some more input on this post, but this was very helpful and concise.

[Bernas]

[ QUOTE ]
Typically I play strictly the cards for the first 3 or 4 levels. Once you get past the first break is when I start looking for any opportunity or situation to steal.

[/ QUOTE ]

Does this mean that you ignore position in the early going? I don't agree if that is the case.

[Bernas]

I think you might want to read
eMarkM's (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=890506&page=3&view=co llapsed&sb=5&o=14&vc=1) post

[drewjustdrew]

In comparison to your live win experience, your argument about 15 minute levels holds no merit as you get to see at least twice, sometimes three times as many hands in that time online, so it would be equivalent to greater than 30 minutes of live play.

Now on to something constructive. When you only have 6000 and the blinds are 300-600, you gotta make something happen. So yes, let it fly and steal when you have position. Go find The Fox and Farmer story by Chuck Thompson, there should be a link at playwinningpoker.com. It is about limit poker tournaments, but can translate to no-limit in terms of taking chances at the appropriate times.

[mrbaseball]

[ QUOTE ]
Does this mean that you ignore position in the early going?

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course not! But I won't make pure position plays like raising K4 in the cutoff because many won't let you steal here because it isn't expensive enough.

First couple of rounds I play very tight and always with total cognizance of my position as it is always better than cards unless you have AA.

[Bernas]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Does this mean that you ignore position in the early going?

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course not! But I won't make pure position plays like raising K4 in the cutoff because many won't let you steal here because it isn't expensive enough.

First couple of rounds I play very tight and always with total cognizance of my position as it is always better than cards unless you have AA.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks. I figured as much, but I just wanted you to clarify so people didn't take it the wrong way.

[valenzuela]

There is no player that can win a huge multi-table tournament without help from the deck.

[mrbaseball]

[ QUOTE ]
There is no player that can win a huge multi-table tournament without help from the deck.


[/ QUOTE ]

Conversely you can't "count" on the decks help to consistently get you into position to win. You need to take advantage of every situation and opportunity to get in position to win. Then you need to win a few coinflips and hope your big hands are bigger than someone elses big hands.

Waiting for the deck to bail you out is a long wait.

[Bernas]

[ QUOTE ]
There is no player that can win a huge multi-table tournament without help from the deck.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please explain. Do you mean more than his fair share of premium cards?

[2005]

"What is a good level to start aggressively stealing? I feel like it's maybe as early as $25/$50 but my gut says $100/$200."

I think 50/100 is a good level to start stealing at.

"What % of your stack should you risk a steal with?"

I'm personally willing to risk my whole stack on a steal or re-steal if I think it's the right play. Then again, I'm willing to risk my whole stack in any situation at any time if I think it's the right play.

"What types of hands should I look to steal with? I'm thinking I would want to steal with hands that could improve like K-x suited or Q-T."

If you're "stealing" you can do it with any 2.

Gavin Griffin

[suited_ace]

First of all, when you're playing MTTs your target should be placing top 3. Because of the prize structure the times you bust out playing aggressively will be more than compensated by the times you get those prizes at the top.

Just to make a point, I play the $5 and $10 buy-in MTTs (my bankroll doesn't allow me more than that). If I finish 1st at a $5 tourney, I'll make about $1000, or ~200 buy-ins. This is what dictates my style. I try to play my A game and if I bust out, no problem, I'll just come back tomorrow. The effect that this has on online tourneys is MUCH greater than on B&M because of the starting chip stacks.

That said, in my experience the time to start stealing some blinds starts by the middle of the 50/100 level. Your targets should be the players with ~15BB, they're usually the ones playing tighter. Always remember that you want to be the agressor here, the only exception being the occasional slowplay when the situation requires it.

Hope this helps.

[valenzuela]

If you put Daniel Negreanu on the party poker $22s(playchips) hes most likely not going to win. Playing a huge multi-table tourney for a good player is like playing the special bingo.( I dunno if they have it on the USA but bingo is a game where the rake is like 40%, ocasionally there will be a special bingo with a guaranteed pot and the house usually loses money.(its like a rake-back))

[mrbaseball]

It's interesting you bring up Daniel because about a year or two ago he wrote an article in Cardplayer stressing the point that if you wait for the deck to help you out more often than not the deck will let you down.

Online MTT's are beatable and profitable for many on this forum and not because the deck is hitting them consistently.

[Stipe_fan]

I was in the exact same situation you described last night in the Super on Party. We were nearing the money cutoff(110 left and 80 to the money). I was just moved to different table where most the players had 5k-7k in chips. One person had 10K. I went into the table with a little over 6K. After 5 hands I knew that everyone was playing for the money. The blinds were 250/500 and then went to 300/600. I was raising the blinds from every position with a 2-2.5XBB. I pushed my stack from 6100 to 9200 by the time the 80 players were left

The most astonishing part of the story is I NEVER was called by the blinds, called by any other player or moved in on.....NEVER.

A sure fire way to choose who to pick on is the time they burn. If they are burning clock every hand, you know they won't make a stand unless they have a top 6 hand. These are the players you want to rape.

Another note, I never raised from the button. Everyone that knows anything about poker knows that is a steal position. I usually don't steal from the button unless I am ready to back it up with my stack.

I would definitely say you need not be so timid. It is really difficult to change after you have learned that tight is right. You can accumulate a lot of chips from the meek but raising.

I never had this problem but if you do get called and the other players see you were playing cheese, you may need to tighten up. I actually would rather somebody would raise me off then be checked down and see the junk I was raising with.

I hope this helps and good luck,

Stipe

[Bernas]

Exactly.

[valenzuela]

I never said its correct to wait for aces or to push any two and hope to get lucky. But next time you are on a coinflip or even as a 2-1 favourite ull know what im talking about.

[Bernas]

But most of the time, the solid players on here can withstand a bad beat or 2. I was in a tournament 2 days ago where I was HU against opponents who were all-in 3 seperate times when I was holding KK. Once against QQ, once against 99 and once against 55. I was beaten each time, yet I still went on to win the tournament.

Each of those opponents got luck from the deck at least once, but they didn't win the tournament. I was extremely unlucky in those 3 situations yet I managed to win. Why? Because you don't need to be hit with the deck to win a Multitable tournament.

[zaxx19]

Online MTT's are beatable and profitable for many on this forum and not because the deck is hitting them consistently.

There are very few people who make a ton of cash at MTT online...some of them post here but if you are a winning 10-20 player(and your intial post said you were) you are MUCH better off value wise grinding mid level limit games $$ wise...enjoyment wise is a different story entirely.

My advice is if you are playing for $$ only use MTT as a stress reducer bc its a leak in most players bankrolls.

[jojoman]

quote:

A sure fire way to choose who to pick on is the time they burn. If they are burning clock every hand, you know they won't make a stand unless they have a top 6 hand. These are the players you want to rape.

Not up on the terminology but sounds interesting. What is burn? Can you explain in laymans terms please?

[docknet]

They are stalling, hoping that others will get knocked out and they will slide into the money. "Burn" has no significant meaning. It's an expression--buring up the clock.

[valenzuela]

If you people think you can win a tourney without having major luck thats ok. When Raymer won the WSOP he got ridicoulously lucky , yet Im sure the WSOP was +ev for him..do u ppl get my point?

[mrbaseball]

I think most will agree that you have to get lucky at some point to win a tournament. You certainly have to survive more than a couple of coinflips and bad beats. But after surviving the early minefield action there are sound strategies and tactics for building a stack so hopefully you have the other guy covered when getting into coinflip or bad beat situations.

But the point that I and others are making is that you have to get yourself into position to get lucky. That means taking advantage of situations and the opportunities they present along the way. You have to get a little lucky for sure but you have to know what to do once you do get lucky and you have to get yourself into position to get lucky and that is where the skill comes in and why you see certain individuals consistently cashing and making final tables.

[DyessMan89]

Bad luck or breaks shouldnt be the reason you're knocked out of a tourney in most cases. You should be constantly picking up small pots ... and those small pots should compensate for the bad breaks youll encounter in the tourney.