A middle pair hand

[jason_t]

First orbit at table and no previous reads. I'd appreciate comments on every street, especially the turn and river. Should I have taken the free card on the turn? Is the river a clear value bet?

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB folds, BB folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds.

Turn: (6.50 BB) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero checks.

River: (6.50 BB) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero....

[private joker]

Why didn't you bet the turn? If you get called, take a free showdown.

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
Why didn't you bet the turn? If you get called, take a free showdown.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is it ever correct to take a free card with middle pair, or is the default line in a hand like this to raise the flop, bet the turn and take the free showdown?

[Chris Daddy Cool]

i would have bet the turn.

that said, i think you can bet this river as a J or Q would probably come to life after the turn check and you could get called by third or even fourth pair.

[Jake (The Snake)]

Does anybody else not like the raise? I mean there's a bet and two callers already... you are likely to get 4 to the turn anyway so if you are ahead, you will likely be outdrawn. Maybe this is a hole for me but I can't see the reasoning for a raise.

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
Does anybody else not like the raise? I mean there's a bet and two callers already... you are likely to get 4 to the turn anyway so if you are ahead, you will likely be outdrawn. Maybe this is a hole for me but I can't see the reasoning for a raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have middle pair with an overcard kicker and a backdoor flush draw. This is more than enough to take a card off. I might be holding the best hand. Raising is better than calling. I raised with the intention of taking a free card on the turn but private joker and CDC are suggesting that betting the turn is a better play. I'm still thinking about this.

[Catt]

I would've raised pre-flop (which might change a lot about the play of the hand).

I like the flop raise.

I would bet the turn and take the free showdown when the 2/images/graemlins/club.gif falls on the river. Having not bet the turn, in your shoes I would still take the free showdown since I can't find a hand or two that would both call a river bet and lose to your 3rd pair TK and I don't think you're folding a better hand with a river bet after the previous streets' play.

[gaming_mouse]

[ QUOTE ]
I have middle pair with an overcard kicker and a backdoor flush draw. This is more than enough to take a card off. I might be holding the best hand. Raising is better than calling. I raised with the intention of taking a free card on the turn but private joker and CDC are suggesting that betting the turn is a better play. I'm still thinking about this.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's interesting... betting the turn seems inconsistent with raising the flop. You have a little bit of fold equity, but not too much. Plus the chance that you get raised should be factored in. I am the fence about betting the turn too.

[SGS]

I think checking the turn is probably best as the turn card didn't help you much and you may be raised in which case you are forced to dump. Take your free card and hope to improve. On the river there is no reason to bet, no worse hand is calling, not better hand is folding. Check it down.

SGS

[brettbrettr]

I disagree. This might be a very, very thin value bet, but after seeing you check the turn I think J or Q is betting here. I guess the question is whether or not they're calling. I dunno, I think its very, very close.

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
I disagree. This might be a very, very thin value bet, but after seeing you check the turn I think J or Q is betting here. I guess the question is whether or not they're calling. I dunno, I think its very, very close.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with you; it's a value bet, but with thin returns. But I'm still trying to figure out whether it's better to check the turn and bet the river or bet the turn and check the river. I'm leaning towards the latter.

[Jake (The Snake)]

Why does the flush draw make raising better? You are drawing to the nuts...

I guess I don't understand the raise since the outs you are drawing to are almost certainly live already. You won't get any hands to outdraw you to fold right?

A hand like AJ will make you lose a lot of money if you hit the ace.

If it's solely to get two free cards, I'm not sure that it's worth it because of the times you will get 3-bet on the flop. What do you do if you are 3-bet?

Keep in mind that I could easily be wrong. Im actually looking for guidance here.

[Jake (The Snake)]

Also, what kind of hand could UTG have to bet here? Not too many draws out there and I can't see him calling preflop with something worse than your eights. IDK.

[Jake (The Snake)]

Again, what hands could UTG have that you beat?

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Does anybody else not like the raise? I mean there's a bet and two callers already... you are likely to get 4 to the turn anyway so if you are ahead, you will likely be outdrawn. Maybe this is a hole for me but I can't see the reasoning for a raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have middle pair with an overcard kicker and a backdoor flush draw. This is more than enough to take a card off. I might be holding the best hand. Raising is better than calling. I raised with the intention of taking a free card on the turn but private joker and CDC are suggesting that betting the turn is a better play. I'm still thinking about this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is raising better than calling?

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
Why is raising better than calling?

[/ QUOTE ]

Value. Free card. Information.

[mr pink]

middle pair top kicker, and a back door flush draw hasn't got that much value here. also what kind of information are you trying to get? if they just call your raise - what does that tell you about their hands? the only information you're gonna get is if you get 3-bet which would be bad.

unless you have a definite reason to think you're ahead of the flop bettor, then i can't see much point in raising.

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
Value.

[/ QUOTE ]

You do not have fair share equity against their typical range of holdings.

[ QUOTE ]
Free card.

[/ QUOTE ]

The number of times you'll get the free card are going to be pretty well compensated for by the times that it gets 3-bet or you're bet into on the turn.

[ QUOTE ]
Information.

[/ QUOTE ]

You mean if you get 3-bet, then you know that you wasted 2 bets?

I don't mean to rip you the raise isn't terrible. But I'm tired of the sort of hyperactive, dogmatic 'gotta raise or fold' advice on here sometimes. Calling is fine a lot of the time, and it's probably the best play here.

[marching_on_together]

i have no problem with calling or raising but if you raise you should take the free card unless you hit otherwise there was no point to rasing the flop. Personally i don't think you will get 3-bet or bet into on the turn too much here. If you had had rasied pre flop then it's more likely this might happen as people tend to think this flop will have missed you and will be carefull not to give you a free card.

[jason_t]

The example in SSH that was in my mind during this hand is from p. 96--97. What are your thoughts on the postflop play in that example?

[ QUOTE ]
Calling is fine a lot of the time, and it's probably the best play here.

[/ QUOTE ]

What about folding the blinds, if my hand is indeed best?

[shant]

[ QUOTE ]
The example in SSH that was in my mind during this hand is from p. 96--97. What are your thoughts on the postflop play in that example?

[/ QUOTE ]

I remember reading a hand like this today while re-reading SSH. It's on p. 123, bottom paragraph. Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be any advice on that page for that hand, other than the fact that the hand is marginal.

I think the main difference between this hand and the one you referenced is the callers inbetween. In the example in the book, you are directly after the PFR.

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
The example in SSH that was in my mind during this hand is from p. 96--97. What are your thoughts on the postflop play in that example?

[ QUOTE ]
Calling is fine a lot of the time, and it's probably the best play here.

[/ QUOTE ]

What about folding the blinds, if my hand is indeed best?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think your hand is only best like 5-10% of the time. The parlay of that being the case and also folding out better hands or hands that would improve to beat yours is pretty slim.

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]

I think your hand is only best like 5-10% of the time. The parlay of that being the case and also folding out better hands or hands that would improve to beat yours is pretty slim.

[/ QUOTE ]

So is your advice for this hand to call the flop and fold on the turn if bet into again, unless of course I improve?

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I think your hand is only best like 5-10% of the time. The parlay of that being the case and also folding out better hands or hands that would improve to beat yours is pretty slim.

[/ QUOTE ]

So is your advice for this hand to call the flop and fold on the turn if bet into again, unless of course I improve?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah.

[jason_t]

Anyone else with comments on the flop raise? I think I understand Nate tha' Great's point concerning equity, but would like to see if anyone else has insight.

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
Anyone else with comments on the flop raise? I think I understand Nate tha' Great's point concerning equity, but would like to see if anyone else has insight.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't play as well as Nate, but I didn't see the point either of the flop raise with three other players already in the pot on this drawless board. There is nothing wrong with calling, and then deciding what to do on the turn after seeing the action ahead of you.

[bakku]

I'd call the flop and reevaluate on the turn.

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't play as well as Nate, but I didn't see the point either of the flop raise with three other players already in the pot on this drawless board. There is nothing wrong with calling, and then deciding what to do on the turn after seeing the action ahead of you.

[/ QUOTE ]

I certainly understand this now and believe it to be correct, I was just wondering if anyone supported the flop raise.

[DarkKnight]

I like the flop raise.

You're planning to continue on the flop because you're either ahead (and vulnerable) or behind and drawing.

On the flop we're either ahead (and very vulnerable) or behind and drawing to five outs and the back door flush.

The raise protects your hand (blinds might fold Jx 4x 99 etc) and allows you to go for the free card when the turn dictates.

The turn is a hybrid between the SSH p 175 (bet) and SSH p 178 (check behind)

Similar to 175 because
the pot is bigger
there are overcards you fear (9, T, K)

Similar to 178 because
if you are behind, you have outs (so you fear a check raise)

different from both because the turn wasn't a blank
you aren't strong enough to call a river bet unless you trying to snap off a bluff.

I think it's unlikely you're ahead here. I say check the turn.

So, all in all, I think I like your line of play.

On the river it looks like you might be ahead and your bet might look like a bluff - I think I go ahead and make the pencil thin value bet here.

[Noodles]

[ QUOTE ]
The raise protects your hand (blinds might fold Jx 4x 99 etc) and allows you to go for the free card when the turn dictates.


[/ QUOTE ]
dont you want to protect your hand when you think it should be best but a bit vulnerable,
why do you think this middle pair hand is best/maybe best with a bettor and 2 callers before you on a non-drawy board?

[DarkKnight]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The raise protects your hand (blinds might fold Jx 4x 99 etc) and allows you to go for the free card when the turn dictates.


[/ QUOTE ]
dont you want to protect your hand when you think it should be best but a bit vulnerable,
why do you think this middle pair hand is best/maybe best with a bettor and 2 callers before you on a non-drawy board?

[/ QUOTE ]

from SSH p 149 (8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif w/ T /images/graemlins/heart.gif 7 /images/graemlins/club.gif 5 /images/graemlins/club.gif)

"More importantly, raising improves your winning chances. You would like to see many different hand fold. If you have the best hand, in this large pot, anyone with as little as an overcard to your pair of sevens threatens you."