Folding AK PF?

[quill18]

When is it right to release AKo?

(Hand converter is [censored] up the bets, so here it is unconverted.)

***** Hand History for Game 1642270639 *****
NL Hold'em $10 Buy-in + $1 Entry Fee Trny:9859742 Level:2 Blinds(15/30) - Thursday, February 24, 18:55:13 EDT 2005
Table Table 11724 (Real Money)
Seat 7 is the button
Total number of players : 8
Seat 3: hotroller2 ( $980 )
Seat 5: emaciat0r ( $703 )
Seat 4: avs21fan ( $670 )
Seat 1: RachKel ( $1005 )
Seat 8: RaverRit ( $1952 )
Seat 6: quill18 ( $815 )
Seat 7: JakHiStr8 ( $1070 )
Seat 2: AceGent ( $805 )
Trny:9859742 Level:2
Blinds(15/30)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to quill18 [ Ah Kd ]
AceGent raises [75].
hotroller2 folds.
avs21fan folds.
emaciat0r calls [75].
quill18 raises [200].
JakHiStr8 folds.
RaverRit folds.
RachKel calls [170].
AceGent calls [125].
emaciat0r is all-In [628]
quill18 ???

Should I have just called the 75?

Now that I'm here - call or fold?

[curtains]

I dont like the raise to 200 because it gives your opponents no chance to fold, and it's terrible if you plan to fold to an allin, since you are just opening the door up to not even playing the hand, whereas gaining very little by raising, as your opponents arent going anywhere.
I would call preflop.

[Big Limpin']

When to fold AK p/f?
Generally, its never correct, save for specific bubble situations, whereby you gain equity by letting 2 others fight.

Unless you know that you play AK postlop so poorly in raised, multiway pots, that you are better off avoiding the chance to f*ck up.

[quill18]

So my reasoning here that I was up against other big hands and that I'd be drawing to few aces and could be against KK was "monsters under the bed" poker? Even without KK, I (and other big hands) could some big hands be drawing slim against a PP?

[ilya]

[ QUOTE ]
When to fold AK p/f?
Generally, its never correct

[/ QUOTE ]

I hope you mean "...against a single raise," because I think it's usually correct to fold AK against a raise and re-raise. I think sometimes it's even a good idea to fold AK against a single raise; for example, say it's level 2, 10-handed, you're UTG+1 with 700 chips and UTG opens it up for 250 for whatever reason. That's an extreme example, but I don't think folding AK against a single PF raise should be that much of a rarity.

[Seadood228]

Great points. Against a single raise, there are many instances where it's correct to fold AK preflop.

On this hand, I think it's a good fold, but I would have coldcalled. Against tougher competition or a higher buyin, I might have raised a little over the pot.

[EDIT] Actually looking at this one again, I prefer a call. The original raiser only called, and the coldcaller moved in. You are behind, but your pot equity is too good to let this one go IMO. If the original raiser had moved in and the caller folded, it'd be a tougher decision.

[curtains]

By the way I say the opponents arent going anywhere because once theyve put in 75 chips in on their own will, they usually won't fold for 125 more.
I'd either make a raise that has a chance of folding my opponents or I'd call.

[AtticusFinch]

[ QUOTE ]
I dont like the raise to 200 because it gives your opponents no chance to fold, and it's terrible if you plan to fold to an allin, since you are just opening the door up to not even playing the hand, whereas gaining very little by raising, as your opponents arent going anywhere.
I would call preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. If you're going to reraise, you have to bet more than that with a caller behind you. 300 would be more like it.

Still, AK is a good hand, but it needs help on the flop. I'd say call and see if you hit. Chances are you'll have plenty of time to build a big pot if you do. If not, you can get away cheaply and let the other two duke it out.

[AtticusFinch]

I disagree. I routinely fold AK pf against a big raise and a reraise or push if it's for a big chunk of my stack (depending on reads, of course).

[keikiwai]

In this case, since the final raiser is all in, it could be worth it to re-raise for the side pot. It is pretty risky, and I guess it would depend on your reads of everyone else. Definitely call and not fold, and remember you playing for the side pot if not the whole pot.

Peter.

[quill18]

Now, here are the hands people actually held, the pokenum stats:

UTG Qs Qd Win: 63.31 Lose: 35.55 Tie: 1.15
UTG+1 Ac Kc Win: 6.68 Lose: 67.74 Tie: 25.59
Hero Kd Ah Win: 1.40 Lose: 73.01 Tie: 25.59
BB Qc Ad Win: 2.31 Lose: 95.70 Tie: 2.00

Given this, I still think that folding to the All-In was correct. UTG+1 could have easily been the person with the pocket pair (and a huge favorite). Things would have been even worse against AA or KK.

So, I think the real question is: Do I cold call, or do I raise to 300+?

I think that even with a raise to 300, QQ and AKs are staying in the pot. I think it decreases the chance of a push by AKs. If he stills goes all-in, I think I'd be even more likely to fold, putting him on AA or KK. Maybe this is a major leak, I dunno. I almost never fold AK PF, but this situation would do it.

Let's go into "What If" mode.

What if I cold called and so did the BB with AQ? The flop is something like 4h, Ks, 3h. BB checks, UTG checks (he's got to figure someone paired the king, right?), UTG+1 goes all-in. Hero???

What if UTG+1 makes a pot-sized bet instead of AI?

My instincts here are to raise all-in to the pot-sized bet, but fold to the all-in from UTG+1. I figure that I'm either far behind to a AA or KK, or even with AK. However, against a pot-sized bet, by raising, I've got good fold equity vs. AK and possibly even AA.

If I do hit an Ace on the flop, I think I'm going all-in whether I'm calling or raising.

I'll post the hand results later today.

[quill18]

Hand results:

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

BB (t1005)
UTG (t805)
UTG+1 (t980)
MP1 (t670)
MP2 (t703)
Hero (t815)
Button (t1070)
SB (t1952)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to t75</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP2 calls t75, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t200</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, BB calls t170, UTG calls t125, Hero folds, BB calls t503, UTG folds.

Flop: (t1193) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

Turn: (t1193) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

River: (t1193) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

Final Pot: t1193

Results:
BB has Ad Qc (one pair, threes).
MP2 has Kc Ac (two pair, kings and threes).
Outcome: MP2 wins t1193.

UTG claimed to have folded QQ, and I'm inclined to believe it.