33 UTG

[iceman5]

$2/$4 NL. I limp UTG with 33.

The pot is unraised and the flop comes 5 way. The flop is Q53 all spades. The pot is $20 and I bet $16.

UTG +1 calls and everyone else folds. I started the hand with about $500 and he has me covered.

Pot is $52. The turn is a Kh (Qs5s3s). I bet $30 and he min raises me. At this point, would you be very sure he flopped the flush and only play this for full house value?

Its $30 to me with a $142 pot, so its an easy call, but if if you dont fill up do you check/fold to any significant bet? I mean he almost HAS to have a flush here right?

[Yeti]

Just as an aside, have you noticed on Prima that when you flop something big from the BB and bet out you get no action?

The number of flushes/trips I've flopped and got no action when I've bet out is unreal. I've taken to checkraising now.

At Party people couldn't wait to challenge my bets out from the blinds. Bah.

[iceman5]

******** Thread Hijack Alert **********
Yes, actually I have noticed that. I had K2 in the BB today and the flop was Q22. I bet into a field of 5 players and they all folded.

By the way, who said this hand was at Prima?

********** Back to original question **********

So what do you do here?

[Yeti]

I assumed it was as I know you play there.

As to the hand, I bet $50 on the turn. He doesn't necessarily have the flush. I've played quite a lot today and seen tons of bizarre play.

Maybe throw out a small blocking bet on the river if you fail to fill up and fold to a push? Go with your read. Sorry, I'm crap at advice /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Ionphore]

Call, throw out 75 on the river, fold to a raise. Against a loose/bluffing type I would just check call the river. If I fill up I checkraise the river. I wouldn't be so quick to put them on a flush. There are a handful of tight players where it would be ok to check fold the river unimproved. If the river is a spade I would almost always checkfold.

[Cornell Fiji]

[ QUOTE ]
Call, throw out 75 on the river, fold to a raise. Against a loose/bluffing type I would just check call the river. If I fill up I checkraise the river. I wouldn't be so quick to put them on a flush. There are a handful of tight players where it would be ok to check fold the river unimproved. If the river is a spade I would almost always checkfold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe 100 on the river but I like this line...

This is pretty player dependent however, I know many people who will make this minraise with A /images/graemlins/spade.gifX, AxK /images/graemlins/spade.gif, KQo... In fact, although I rarely minraise I like that play a lot with AxK /images/graemlins/spade.gif. I wouldn't be as sure as you that you are against the flush.

If your read tells you that you are against the flush then a call and check/fold is an ok play, I would rather fire out a blocking bet on the river though if I didn't fear a raise from A /images/graemlins/spade.gif that missed. Check/fold if a spade rivers.

-Steve

[quix0tic]

The minraise seems quite strange with the naked A /images/graemlins/spade.gif or K /images/graemlins/spade.gif. Folding the river isnt that weak. With hands like these I go with my read and either raise large as a semibluff or call for value. Minraising puts some pressure on but also reopens the betting for a smaller flush to reraise and hurt your odds. Most players I know are also unlikely to make this move. BTW, fiji, I respect your posts and its completely incidental that I happen to contradict your last few /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

[Cornell Fiji]

Quixotic,
I think the min raise would be a pretty good play for both A /images/graemlins/spade.gifKx, A/images/graemlins/spade.gifQ, and AxK /images/graemlins/spade.gif (although obviously better with the former because you can't be drawing dead,) these are two hands that you dont mind reopening the door with, because you do have 9 outs and maybe more. By min raising the turn you are representing a flush and therefore can value bet the river knowing that if you are check-raised on the end you are against a flush nearly 100% of the time.

Other benefits of the minraise here with A /images/graemlins/spade.gif Q / K is that it will get you a free showdown often with your vunerable holding. Also if a 4th spade rivers an overaxious opponent might try to 'push you off' of your low flush.

I think that the best hand to minraise with here if in the villains shoes would be A /images/graemlins/spade.gifQ, a hand that he wouldn't be able to value bet on this river and a hand that he wouldnt want to call a bet on the river with. In essence this would be a blocking bet out of position by the villain if he had A /images/graemlins/spade.gifQ

-Steve


Edit: Thanks for the kind words, please feel free to contradict me as often as possible. I think that the best way to learn anything is to be put to the test by someone challenging your beliefs; through formulating a defense you will further examine the situation and will come to a better understanding with the question at hand. Pleae continue contradicting me.

[quix0tic]

Good points throughout. I think you slightly misinterpreted what I was saying. Minraising or just raising with top pair and nut or second nut flush draw I'm completely in favor of, seeing as you both want to protect your queen and have outs to the nut. My major qualm is with minraising the A /images/graemlins/spade.gif with unpaired crap kicker when you are likely facing a smaller flush. A lot of people have trouble letting go psychologically after hitting big flops like this and if a fourth spade falls, will make a bad call. I wouldn't want to lose the juicy implied odds by reopening the betting in this case in particular. Secondly, its game dependent, but when I see these minraises at the table, it's much more often a set or small flush than naked ace. And any one of my professors would agree I'm a little too eager for a healthy argument - "wow, you need to forget about neuroscience and go prelaw". Good times.