Way ahead / Way behind

[suited_ace]

I was wondering how can I know when I'm in a "either I'm way ahead or way behind" hand. Some situations are very clear to me (trips vs. flush or straight draw, for example), others not that much.

Once you know you're in one of these hands, how do you proceed usually? Just for kicks, let's say you hit top set on a all-diamonds flop. In general terms, how would you play this HU or against 2 or 3 players? (I know there's a myriad of elements that will affect play, chip stacks, blinds, etc, but I just would like a general idea here).

[Sam T.]

I think this was one of the topics Lloyd was going to get us started on...

Have we started this and I missed it?

[Che]

AQo on an A94 rainbow flop is way ahead or way behind.

Unless you have a boat, you are not way ahead/way behind someone with a flush or open-ended straight draw.

The number of outs the opponent has is the key. I consider 5 or fewer to be way ahead way behind. 8 or more definitely not. In between is the gray area.

That's the way I understand it, but I hope MLG and others jump in.

Later,
Che

[MLG]

that's pretty much it in a general sense, although there are a wide variety of spots it can be applied in. One spot I don't think enough people apply the concept in, is blind stealing. You raise with A7o and get called by the BB. The flop comes A83 rainbow. BB checks, why bet the flop there, either your getting called by a better A, or he's folding. If you check hopefully he'll bluff some non ace hands on the turn.

[nolanfan34]

[ QUOTE ]
That's the way I understand it, but I hope MLG and others jump in.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have an article about this with a hand example coming up in the May issue of the Internet Magazine. I don't want to give it all away, but essentially what others have said is correct.

There are usually three main factors that I use to decide if I'm way ahead or way behind:

- Possible range of hands for my opponent based on the PF action.
- Average number of outs my opponent might have if I think I'm way ahead.
- Number of outs I have if I'm way behind.

The other key, and where I usually go into a way behind, or way ahead mode, is if I have a hand that I want to show down for sure. Against an opponent who will value bet you with holdings that you beat, but will fold if you bet, it's sometimes best to take a passive approach on the turn and river much like a limit hold em hand.

Those are just a few thoughts. There's nothing intrisic about identifying it, because determining it can be a very different process for different opponents.

[MLG]

[ QUOTE ]
Against an opponent who will value bet you with holdings that you beat, but will fold if you bet, it's sometimes best to take a passive approach on the turn and river much like a limit hold em hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

In NL too.

[nolanfan34]

[ QUOTE ]
You raise with A7o and get called by the BB. The flop comes A83 rainbow. BB checks, why bet the flop there, either your getting called by a better A, or he's folding. If you check hopefully he'll bluff some non ace hands on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's a great example, and a play that people don't make enough, I agree. It's so easy to bet the flop, have them fold, and be happy with the hand. But taking a passive route there may be the best way to win the most or lose the least.

[kuro]

[ QUOTE ]
You raise with A7o and get called by the BB. The flop comes A83 rainbow. BB checks, why bet the flop there, either your getting called by a better A, or he's folding. If you check hopefully he'll bluff some non ace hands on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you alternate between calling it down or reraising on the turn and usually fold if they bet big on the river or rereraise?

[MLG]

I would call a flop bet. On the turn I would call although I'm not sure what I would do if he fired at the river again. If he checks the turn I'll check behind again, to enduce a river bluff. If he checks the river I'll value bet and hope to get called by 2nd or 3rd pair.

[tiger7210]

As another example to your reply MLG, if you were on a steal with say J8 and get called by the BB. If the flop comes J high with 2 rags would you still consider checking behind on the flop or make a bet to protect your hand against the overcard from coming on the turn or river.

Is your check behind always read dependent on the opponent or because you are either way ahead or way behind.

Does your check behind leave you in a lot of uneasy situations where you are calling a possible bluff with marginal hands?

[MLG]

I won't check behind generally with the J there because while its true i might be way ahead or way behind, overcards are going to make the rest of this hand very difficult to play.

My check behind is both read dependent and way ahead/way behind. If I read the other player for the type of hand that I am way ahead/way behind with I'll make the check. I will also check other times, but this is one of them.


Yes, this play does put me in marginal situations on later streets. I didn't start off playing this way, but as I've played more and gotten more experience I've begun to trust my game enough to figure out those situations correctly (or correctly enough to show a profit with them).

[sthief09]

trips vs. a flush/straight draw isn't way ahead or way behind. 2 or 3-1 is not way ahead. the way I think of it as the range of hands my opponent can have either has me drawing to 3 outs, or I have it drawing to 3 outs or less.

the others have included some NL examples so I'll throw in the classic LHE example (I think it probably works for NL too). let's say you have AK and the flop comes A88. your opponent bets into you. you're way ahead or way behind. think of a worse hand that has >3 outs.there is none. a hand like AQ has 3 outs. a bluff has no outs. an 8 has you drawing to 2 outs.