Aukai
02-24-2005, 05:14 PM
David/Mason/Ed/others,
First off, forgive me if this has been discussed before, a search was fruitless.
I've had SSHE as my bible for a long time, but didn't get around to reading HEPFAP until yesterday. As usual with 2+2 books, it was a solid read, and I will learn and earn much from it.
However, I found the section on loose play to contradict SSHE on preflop recommendations. For example, p. 161 of HEPFAP advises to limp AQo on the button after 4 limpers, as 1) "you give your hand away," 2) if the flop comes rags and it's checked to you, you can bet with what is probably the best hand, 3) if an ace or queen does flop, you may be bet into, allowing you to raise and better protect your hand, and 4) (from the razz example) by making the pot larger, you incidentally cause your opponents' poor play to become correct.
Then on 162: "In general, you should not raise with offsuit hands (other than AK), except if you have a chance to isolate a weak opponent."
Further down this page, "... in a weak game where many players are playing too many hands and going too far with their hands, if the player under the gun limps in and you have AdJh and there are several players still to act behind you, you should fold. In fact, even if you were the player under the gun, you should probably fold."
I find all these examples to contradict SSHE advice, which would be to raise all of these. On p.73 of SSHE on big offsuit broadways: "They commonly make a strong top pair. All offsuit hands are at an inherent disadvantage in a multiway pot, but these hands win often enough to play well against many weak limpers... Raise any of these hands if it has not already been raised." The footnote implies than AJo and KQo are exceptions after many limpers.
I've been playing the SSHE way, and most advice in these forums would follow this school of thought. It seems odd to me that such contradictory recommendations exist in books presented by the same authors (sans Miller for HEPFAP) to apply in the same games.
In my yet-incomplete understanding of the game, it seems to me that the differences lie in when to apply the fundamental theorem. That is, is it better to forego some expectation preflop if it allows your weak opponents to make more mistakes post, or is it better to amplify the cost of making their first mistake- playing an inferior hand- despite the prospect of making it correct for them to draw. Is this in the ballpark of accurate?
I'd be interested in hearing any discussion about these differences.
Sorry for the novella.
First off, forgive me if this has been discussed before, a search was fruitless.
I've had SSHE as my bible for a long time, but didn't get around to reading HEPFAP until yesterday. As usual with 2+2 books, it was a solid read, and I will learn and earn much from it.
However, I found the section on loose play to contradict SSHE on preflop recommendations. For example, p. 161 of HEPFAP advises to limp AQo on the button after 4 limpers, as 1) "you give your hand away," 2) if the flop comes rags and it's checked to you, you can bet with what is probably the best hand, 3) if an ace or queen does flop, you may be bet into, allowing you to raise and better protect your hand, and 4) (from the razz example) by making the pot larger, you incidentally cause your opponents' poor play to become correct.
Then on 162: "In general, you should not raise with offsuit hands (other than AK), except if you have a chance to isolate a weak opponent."
Further down this page, "... in a weak game where many players are playing too many hands and going too far with their hands, if the player under the gun limps in and you have AdJh and there are several players still to act behind you, you should fold. In fact, even if you were the player under the gun, you should probably fold."
I find all these examples to contradict SSHE advice, which would be to raise all of these. On p.73 of SSHE on big offsuit broadways: "They commonly make a strong top pair. All offsuit hands are at an inherent disadvantage in a multiway pot, but these hands win often enough to play well against many weak limpers... Raise any of these hands if it has not already been raised." The footnote implies than AJo and KQo are exceptions after many limpers.
I've been playing the SSHE way, and most advice in these forums would follow this school of thought. It seems odd to me that such contradictory recommendations exist in books presented by the same authors (sans Miller for HEPFAP) to apply in the same games.
In my yet-incomplete understanding of the game, it seems to me that the differences lie in when to apply the fundamental theorem. That is, is it better to forego some expectation preflop if it allows your weak opponents to make more mistakes post, or is it better to amplify the cost of making their first mistake- playing an inferior hand- despite the prospect of making it correct for them to draw. Is this in the ballpark of accurate?
I'd be interested in hearing any discussion about these differences.
Sorry for the novella.