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View Full Version : Foul play on the river? Please estimate the EV


Girchuck
02-24-2005, 02:41 PM
Party Poker $5-$10 6-handed
The UTG is a shortstacked LAG, the rest are unknown
I'm on the button with A /images/graemlins/heart.gifQ /images/graemlins/heart.gif
Everyone limps to me, I raise, Everyone calls.

Flop is 6 /images/graemlins/club.gif9 /images/graemlins/heart.gifQ /images/graemlins/club.gif
Checked to me, I bet, everyone calls.
Turn is 7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif (6 /images/graemlins/club.gif9 /images/graemlins/heart.gifQ /images/graemlins/club.gif)
UTG bets all-in, all call to me, I raise, SB folds, the rest call.

River is A /images/graemlins/club.gif(7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif6 /images/graemlins/club.gif9 /images/graemlins/heart.gifQ /images/graemlins/club.gif)
Checked to me and I check(?)

Grisgra
02-24-2005, 02:48 PM
I know you're a fearin' a flush, but I think you have to bet this.

Girchuck
02-24-2005, 03:52 PM
Part of my check was the fear of the check-raise which I must pay off.
Another part was the fishy curiosity to see what all the other people had.

the board: Q /images/graemlins/club.gif9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif6 /images/graemlins/club.gif7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gifA /images/graemlins/club.gif

BB came in second with 8 /images/graemlins/club.gif6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif
UTG came in third with 5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif
MP came in fourth with K /images/graemlins/club.gifJ /images/graemlins/spade.gif
CO came in last with K /images/graemlins/diamond.gifT /images/graemlins/heart.gif

I am a sucker with a big pot

Grisgra
02-24-2005, 04:11 PM
Not that much of a sucker. Who do you think calls you here?

SomethingClever
02-24-2005, 04:25 PM
If this is a value bet, it seems pretty thin.

You have 3 opponents left (1 folded; 1 is all-in).

You're very likely to be checkraised by a flush.

You have to decide how many callers you're likely to get.

Edit: I tried to figure this out, but screwed up. Too many factors for me to calculate. Can someone else do it?

I think it's a very close decision, FWIW.

Zele
02-24-2005, 04:34 PM
Gotta grit your teeth and bet it. You can reasonably expect to be called in more than one place, and therefore are getting better than even odds on your action.

Girchuck
02-24-2005, 04:52 PM
I have a chance to learn the hands of 3 players all of them unknowns. My hand plays itself till the river, so they learn less about me by seeing my hand, if anything. How much is this information worth? If I bet, and lucky enough that no one has a flush, how many hands will I learn? If there are two flush check-raisers, will I have the discipline to release to raise and re-raise?

Mr. Graff
02-24-2005, 05:25 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I have a chance to learn the hands of 3 players all of them unknowns.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think you overestimate the value of information here (what a table though /images/graemlins/grin.gif). Curiosity is a terrible reason not to bet this strong hand.

You are last to act, noone has bet, the ace is the flush suit making a flush much less likely. Someone with a flush would often bet here of fear you will check this fearing both a flush and the ace. You have to bet IMO.

Girchuck
02-24-2005, 05:53 PM
I think you are making great arguments for betting.
If I do not bet in this situation a majority of the time,
this could be a leak.
I was just fascinated, how a quest for information commonly associated with fish (who calls to see what you had) can mutate to still cause problems, even if a player grows up a bit. What is even worse, is that at the time I made the play, I had all the arguments against betting lined up in my head, and not a single argument pro betting. I guess I just hate making crying calls too much, need to work on that.

Trix
02-24-2005, 07:02 PM
Your are ahead more often than not here and there are several people who may want to pay you off.

Some of them would bet out on the river when they hit a flush and some of them would have played the draw faster on the flop in this family pot.

I´m guessing it´s atleast a 10$ mistake to check this river.