NOONE KNOWS - Please Help With My Play On This Hand.. Very Tricky

[ojsdaman]

Hello all. I have a serious question about the way I played a hand at foxwoods and noone can figure it out. If you could help me I would seriously appreciate it. This hand play is one of the most tricky I have ever encountered. The advice could go for more hands when you are pretty sure you have the nuts. It was at a 4-8 table at foxwoods on Tuesday night. The table was loose prefolp, and loose on the flop, but very tight after the turn.
I was in the #2 position with (2H, 2S). UTG called, I called, #4 called, Button called, SB called, and BB checked. 6 Player saw the flop of JC, 9C, 8H, with $24 dollars in the pot.
SB bet, BB called, #1 called, I called hoping for trips ( I wasnt worried about being raised because noone was raising the entire night after the flop because everyone was slowplaying, so they would check raise on the turn. So I called, and everyone else called and there was $48 dollars in the pot.
6 players see the turn of 9H. Everyone checked but I was pretty sure someone had a 9 and was slowplaying. Most likely it was one of the blinds because both had been check-raising on the turn all night.
The river was the 2C, giving me a full house. So I had (2H,2S) and the board was (Jc, 9c, 8h, 9h, 2c). I was 98 % sure I had the best hand, with the only chance being someone with J,9. I was also close to 100 % sure someone had made the flush, and everyone at the table had been flush hunting all night.
Ok heres my question, and where it all gets tricky. SB thought about betting but checked, BB checked, #1 quickly bet. Because it was only 4/8 i wanted to hopefully get a bunch of bets in. So #1 bet, and it was up to me to call or raise, with 4 people still left to play behind me.
Based on my reads I felt that:
IF I RAISE, heres what could happen
1) anyone with a 9 will probably fold as I alerted them to a possible straight or flush 2) anyone with the straight will just call for fear of the flush 3) anyone with the nutflush (or maybe K flush) will reraise and I will get the chance to make it 4 bets, with the #1 player calling because he would be trapped in a pot with good pot odds.
IF I CALL, heres what could happen with 4 players still left to act.
1) anyone with a J would most likely call 2) anyone with a 9, a flush, or a straight might raise because they are still in the mindset of slowplaying and therefore I could reraise with 1,2 or 3 players being trapped in the pot with them having already called the $8 dollar bet from the #1 position, so they would call any raises most likely.
So I either raise and hope someone made the nut flush and reraise me, or I call and hope someome raises up the pot allowing me to re-raise.
I know most of the time you should raise in my situation with the full house.
I CALLED FOR THESE REASONS. I felt that if I raised then everyone would fold and the #1 would just call unless he had the nut flush in which he would reraise me. If he calls my raise then I only gain $16 dollars on the river. If he reraises me, then I would gain $ 32 because I would then reraise. I still felt that the #1 position would only call me, so I thought I would only gain $16. I FELT that i called, all it would take it one other person behind me to call to equal the EV that I would gain from raising and having the #1 just call me. If I call and more then one person calls, then I would make more than the $16 dollars I would get from raising. If I ONLY called I felt that someone might foolishly raise the pot up with a 9, or a straight, or a low flush. If that happend that everyone would be trapped and I would reraise and gain much more from it. I realized that if I call I might be lucky enough to get this situation or one just like it. --- #1 bet, I call, #4 call, button raises, SB folds, BB folds, #1 calls, I re-raise, #4 calls, button calls and #1 calls. If that happens then I would take down a pot of $144 or more. That is a ton more than if I raised and taking down a pot of $80 when the #1 just calls me.
Please help me out with this insane situation. It had been driving me crazy for the past few days, and I cannot figure out the correct play here. Noone I ask gives me a detailed answer that would explain this. Thankyou so much for your time in reading this long post, but I had to explain every detail to get a correct answer. I know this type of hand happens often enough that I need to know the correct play for the future.
Thanks again,
Evan

[pudley4]

fold on the flop. you don't have anywhere near the odds you need to call to see the turn, plus the 2 /images/graemlins/club.gif puts a 3-flush on the board, plus any Q,T or 7 may complete a straight for an opponent.

[Sir Limps Alot]

I would have folded the flop. What are you doing in this pot?
No one will fold with a decent hand on the river way to much value.

I think you are beat by a better full house.

[bilbo-san]

Easy fold on the flop. Not even close. Even IF you had odds for calling to a set (you need 22-1), you STILL might be behind to a flopped straight, and any OESD has 8 outs against you. Also, if you hit the 2C, anyone with a club has outs against you.

So you are paying about 10-1 odds (assuming callers behind you, and no one raises behind you) for your 22-1 chance of spiking a hand that STILL might not be good.

I'm definitely still a beginner compared to people on this board, but this play is downright fishy.

[ErrantNight]

way to completely miss the issue with this hand... fold that flop, and it ain't close.

and way to back into a boat on the river that you can't even bet! i like how you ignored this possibility on the turn when you were still praying for a deuce.

also how at your tables every time the board pairs and there's a three flush someone has the flush, and two people have boats. but no one ever bets them.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
Hello all. I have a serious question about the way I played a hand at foxwoods and noone can figure it out. If you could help me I would seriously appreciate it. This hand play is one of the most tricky I have ever encountered. The advice could go for more hands when you are pretty sure you have the nuts. It was at a 4-8 table at foxwoods on Tuesday night. The table was loose prefolp, and loose on the flop, but very tight after the turn.
I was in the #2 position with (2H, 2S). UTG called, I called, #4 called, Button called, SB called, and BB checked. 6 Player saw the flop of JC, 9C, 8H, with $24 dollars in the pot.
SB bet, BB called, #1 called, I called hoping for trips ( I wasnt worried about being raised because noone was raising the entire night after the flop because everyone was slowplaying, so they would check raise on the turn. So I called, and everyone else called and there was $48 dollars in the pot.
6 players see the turn of 9H. Everyone checked but I was pretty sure someone had a 9 and was slowplaying. Most likely it was one of the blinds because both had been check-raising on the turn all night.
The river was the 2C, giving me a full house. So I had (2H,2S) and the board was (Jc, 9c, 8h, 9h, 2c). I was 98 % sure I had the best hand, with the only chance being someone with J,9. I was also close to 100 % sure someone had made the flush, and everyone at the table had been flush hunting all night.
Ok heres my question, and where it all gets tricky. SB thought about betting but checked, BB checked, #1 quickly bet. Because it was only 4/8 i wanted to hopefully get a bunch of bets in. So #1 bet, and it was up to me to call or raise, with 4 people still left to play behind me.
Based on my reads I felt that:
IF I RAISE, heres what could happen
1) anyone with a 9 will probably fold as I alerted them to a possible straight or flush 2) anyone with the straight will just call for fear of the flush 3) anyone with the nutflush (or maybe K flush) will reraise and I will get the chance to make it 4 bets, with the #1 player calling because he would be trapped in a pot with good pot odds.
IF I CALL, heres what could happen with 4 players still left to act.
1) anyone with a J would most likely call 2) anyone with a 9, a flush, or a straight might raise because they are still in the mindset of slowplaying and therefore I could reraise with 1,2 or 3 players being trapped in the pot with them having already called the $8 dollar bet from the #1 position, so they would call any raises most likely.
So I either raise and hope someone made the nut flush and reraise me, or I call and hope someome raises up the pot allowing me to re-raise.
I know most of the time you should raise in my situation with the full house.
I CALLED FOR THESE REASONS. I felt that if I raised then everyone would fold and the #1 would just call unless he had the nut flush in which he would reraise me. If he calls my raise then I only gain $16 dollars on the river. If he reraises me, then I would gain $ 32 because I would then reraise. I still felt that the #1 position would only call me, so I thought I would only gain $16. I FELT that i called, all it would take it one other person behind me to call to equal the EV that I would gain from raising and having the #1 just call me. If I call and more then one person calls, then I would make more than the $16 dollars I would get from raising. If I ONLY called I felt that someone might foolishly raise the pot up with a 9, or a straight, or a low flush. If that happend that everyone would be trapped and I would reraise and gain much more from it. I realized that if I call I might be lucky enough to get this situation or one just like it. --- #1 bet, I call, #4 call, button raises, SB folds, BB folds, #1 calls, I re-raise, #4 calls, button calls and #1 calls. If that happens then I would take down a pot of $144 or more. That is a ton more than if I raised and taking down a pot of $80 when the #1 just calls me.
Please help me out with this insane situation. It had been driving me crazy for the past few days, and I cannot figure out the correct play here. Noone I ask gives me a detailed answer that would explain this. Thankyou so much for your time in reading this long post, but I had to explain every detail to get a correct answer. I know this type of hand happens often enough that I need to know the correct play for the future.
Thanks again,
Evan

[/ QUOTE ]

Fold the flop. Twice.

[bernie]

You should start out by learning pot odds.

Fold the flop. You missed.

b

[ojsdaman]

Normally I would fold the flop, but the way the table was playing I knew the flop wouldnt be raised. Also the way the table had been playing for hours, the pot was either tiny or huge, and I thought that the flop made me expect great pot odds later on. If a 2 falls then I can win a enormous pot.

[emonrad87]

You could know that the flop wasn't gonna be raised, but it doesnt matter. You aren't even close to getting odds to call here.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
Normally I would fold the flop, but the way the table was playing I knew the flop wouldnt be raised. Also the way the table had been playing for hours, the pot was either tiny or huge, and I thought that the flop made me expect great pot odds later on. If a 2 falls then I can win a enormous pot.


[/ QUOTE ]

You still don't have the odds to call this single flop bet.

b

[ojsdaman]

thankyou everyone for your responses...i know i shouldnt have called the flop bet... i just had a weird feeling... sometimes you just get that gut feeling and need to run with it

[DemonDeac]

for the record, i muck this preflop in any EP

[bakku]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You should start out by learning pot odds.

Fold the flop. You missed.

b

[/ QUOTE ]

Normally I would fold the flop, but the way the table was playing I knew the flop wouldnt be raised. Also the way the table had been playing for hours, the pot was either tiny or huge, and I thought that the flop made me expect great pot odds later on. If a 2 falls then I can win a enormous pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
You should start out by learning pot odds.

Fold the flop. You missed.

b


[/ QUOTE ]

[27offsooot]

Holy crap this post is long... No comments

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
i just had a weird feeling... sometimes you just get that gut feeling and need to run with it


[/ QUOTE ]

Don't run. Walk...



...to the ATM.

b

[ojsdaman]

i know all of you think that my play was terrible... I AGREE with you...I should never have thought about calling the bet on the flop.. 99 times out of a 100 i would fold.. because of the people in the pot i called.. of the 5 others in the pot, 4 of them were extremely weak and i knew if i got the 2 i could make a huge play on them. some weak players just make pots huge very often and i wanted to take advantage of the overall weakness of 4 players all at once, while only facing 1 decent player

[TripleH68]

[ QUOTE ]
some weak players just make pots huge very often and i wanted to take advantage of the overall weakness of 4 players all at once, while only facing 1 decent player

[/ QUOTE ]

What you need to understand is this:

Every time you make that call you are losing money. Period.

[PotatoStew]

[ QUOTE ]
wanted to take advantage of the overall weakness of 4 players all at once, while only facing 1 decent player

[/ QUOTE ]

If the table was as loose as you say, there would be plenty of opportunity to do this WITH proper pot odds in a different hand. As others have said, you are losing money with this play.

And your hand is nowhere near the nuts here.

[ojsdaman]

all night i was having trouble isolating against these weak players and i took a chance on the hand with all of them in it

[ojsdaman]

also, i had ridiculous reads on each of these 4 players and because of that i wasnt worried...i felt that if they hit the flush or the straight i could fold my trips if needed, but the board paired and i ended up with the boat...its not as if i called a turn bet as that would be the worst play in history

[GailMI]

[ QUOTE ]
i know all of you think that my play was terrible... I AGREE with you...I should never have thought about calling the bet on the flop.. 99 times out of a 100 i would fold.. because of the people in the pot i called.. of the 5 others in the pot, 4 of them were extremely weak and i knew if i got the 2 i could make a huge play on them. some weak players just make pots huge very often and i wanted to take advantage of the overall weakness of 4 players all at once, while only facing 1 decent player

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, when I read this and I got to the part where you called the flop, I'm thinking HUH?? Of course you should have folded after you didn't hit the flop. But you didn't, and rather than justify it, I would just say, I was stupid, I was desperate, I was tired, I hit the wrong button---WHATEVER--I called the flop. So you WERE in the hand with the boat. In answer to your question--I would have raised. Nobody with a flush, or probably even the trip 9's is probably going to fold. A nut flush might even re-raise (at least at the low-limit tables I play, they might). So my answer to your poll is raise. (Oh, yeah--and you should have folded the flop). /images/graemlins/smile.gif /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[pyroponic]

Well fold PF and flop obviously, regarding the river play I think raising would be best, because if everyone calls you just lost a lot of bets. Anyone with trips, straight, or flush will probably call the raise cold or even reraise, I think BB has a good hand so by raising you're giving him the chance to make it 3-bets with MP and LP players already calling your raise on the river.

[Hellmouth]

[ QUOTE ]
Well fold PF and flop obviously, regarding the river play I think raising would be best, because if everyone calls you just lost a lot of bets. Anyone with trips, straight, or flush will probably call the raise cold or even reraise, I think BB has a good hand so by raising you're giving him the chance to make it 3-bets with MP and LP players already calling your raise on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe I am crazy but when I have big hands I play them big. If your reads are good and you think that you are dominating a flush draw etc, they will call your raise. That is how you make money with big hands. I think that you lose more by giving everyone a chance to call behind you.

Greg

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
because of the people in the pot i called.. of the 5 others in the pot, 4 of them were extremely weak and i knew if i got the 2 i could make a huge play on them.

[/ QUOTE ]

You still don't understand that with these opponents, you don't have the odds to call the flop. It will be very hard to make up the bets you need to make the call profitable.

Not sure why that's so hard to comprehend.

[ QUOTE ]
some weak players just make pots huge very often and i wanted to take advantage of the overall weakness of 4 players all at once, while only facing 1 decent player

[/ QUOTE ]

The way you're thinking, you fit the mold you describe above. You help make the pots big. You are the one chasing with long, almost unrecoupable odds. You didn't outplay your opponents in this hand.

b

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
also, i had ridiculous reads on each of these 4 players and because of that i wasnt worried...i felt that if they hit the flush or the straight i could fold my trips if needed, but the board paired and i ended up with the boat...its not as if i called a turn bet as that would be the worst play in history

[/ QUOTE ]

Good luck.


Now I have to try and find out how to recoup the time I wasted in this thread.

b

[pokerrookie]

[ QUOTE ]
Hello all. I have a serious question about the way I played a hand at foxwoods and noone can figure it out. If you could help me I would seriously appreciate it. This hand play is one of the most tricky I have ever encountered. The advice could go for more hands when you are pretty sure you have the nuts. It was at a 4-8 table at foxwoods on Tuesday night. The table was loose prefolp, and loose on the flop, but very tight after the turn.
I was in the #2 position with (2H, 2S). UTG called, I called, #4 called, Button called, SB called, and BB checked. 6 Player saw the flop of JC, 9C, 8H, with $24 dollars in the pot.
SB bet, BB called, #1 called, I called hoping for trips ( I wasnt worried about being raised because noone was raising the entire night after the flop because everyone was slowplaying, so they would check raise on the turn. So I called, and everyone else called and there was $48 dollars in the pot.
6 players see the turn of 9H. Everyone checked but I was pretty sure someone had a 9 and was slowplaying. Most likely it was one of the blinds because both had been check-raising on the turn all night.
The river was the 2C, giving me a full house. So I had (2H,2S) and the board was (Jc, 9c, 8h, 9h, 2c). I was 98 % sure I had the best hand, with the only chance being someone with J,9. I was also close to 100 % sure someone had made the flush, and everyone at the table had been flush hunting all night.
Ok heres my question, and where it all gets tricky. SB thought about betting but checked, BB checked, #1 quickly bet. Because it was only 4/8 i wanted to hopefully get a bunch of bets in. So #1 bet, and it was up to me to call or raise, with 4 people still left to play behind me.
Based on my reads I felt that:
IF I RAISE, heres what could happen
1) anyone with a 9 will probably fold as I alerted them to a possible straight or flush 2) anyone with the straight will just call for fear of the flush 3) anyone with the nutflush (or maybe K flush) will reraise and I will get the chance to make it 4 bets, with the #1 player calling because he would be trapped in a pot with good pot odds.
IF I CALL, heres what could happen with 4 players still left to act.
1) anyone with a J would most likely call 2) anyone with a 9, a flush, or a straight might raise because they are still in the mindset of slowplaying and therefore I could reraise with 1,2 or 3 players being trapped in the pot with them having already called the $8 dollar bet from the #1 position, so they would call any raises most likely.
So I either raise and hope someone made the nut flush and reraise me, or I call and hope someome raises up the pot allowing me to re-raise.
I know most of the time you should raise in my situation with the full house.
I CALLED FOR THESE REASONS. I felt that if I raised then everyone would fold and the #1 would just call unless he had the nut flush in which he would reraise me. If he calls my raise then I only gain $16 dollars on the river. If he reraises me, then I would gain $ 32 because I would then reraise. I still felt that the #1 position would only call me, so I thought I would only gain $16. I FELT that i called, all it would take it one other person behind me to call to equal the EV that I would gain from raising and having the #1 just call me. If I call and more then one person calls, then I would make more than the $16 dollars I would get from raising. If I ONLY called I felt that someone might foolishly raise the pot up with a 9, or a straight, or a low flush. If that happend that everyone would be trapped and I would reraise and gain much more from it. I realized that if I call I might be lucky enough to get this situation or one just like it. --- #1 bet, I call, #4 call, button raises, SB folds, BB folds, #1 calls, I re-raise, #4 calls, button calls and #1 calls. If that happens then I would take down a pot of $144 or more. That is a ton more than if I raised and taking down a pot of $80 when the #1 just calls me.
Please help me out with this insane situation. It had been driving me crazy for the past few days, and I cannot figure out the correct play here. Noone I ask gives me a detailed answer that would explain this. Thankyou so much for your time in reading this long post, but I had to explain every detail to get a correct answer. I know this type of hand happens often enough that I need to know the correct play for the future.
Thanks again,
Evan

[/ QUOTE ]


For the sake of debate, I will side with Evan on this one. He had reads on the players that they really tightened up on the turn and two of the players in check raise with good hands. He is getting 11 to 1 odds on his call, and if we assume his two are both live, he needs 22 to 1 to make the call. Since he has reads that this call will not be raised, and would likely let him see the river for free (as it happened to turn out), then he is getting 11 to 1 for 11 to 1. Throw in the likelihood that if one of his cards hits, he will get more bets, it looks like it may not be such a terrible play. And just think of the table image this would create for him. The losers in this hand think he's a fish, go on a major tilt, reraise his nut hands the rest of the night, and he makes major money.

Again, trying to find some logic to back him up...Its the best I could do. The important thing most posters are forgetting is the reads. What good are reads if you don't use them? Let's say for example you have been playing for 6 hours and nobody has put in a single bet on the turn. Then wouldn't you be a bit more loose with your calls on the flop? Not doing so would certainly be -EV.

BTW, the title was just to get you to read.

[PotatoStew]

[ QUOTE ]
He is getting 11 to 1 odds on his call

[/ QUOTE ]

No... 9 to 1.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
Not doing so would certainly be -EV.

[/ QUOTE ]

Since he doesn't have the 2 of trump, his call is a bit longer than 11-1/22-1, isn't it? There's a tainted out there.

[ QUOTE ]
Let's say for example you have been playing for 6 hours and nobody has put in a single bet on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because this happens everywhere in that little town called, nowhere.

b

[pokerrookie]

Yep, sorry about that. Only looked at total post flop pot. But supposing he knew that all would call...I think he alluded to this.