Generic 10/20 question about missing the flop.

[Grisgra]

You open-raise with AT or AJ or somesuch UTG or UTG+1 or the CO. The button coldcalls, as does the SB, and the BB completes.

Flop comes Q86r, and it's checked to you. Do you bet? What about T85r?

If so, say you get two or more callers. Turn is a blank. Do you bet?

This question is obviously not only relevant to 10/20, but as that game plays a little differently (people are much more willing to just call with top pair and punish you later) the correct play there might be a little different. Assume most opponents are somewhat aggressive, somewhat loose both preflop and postflop.

Just because I really don't know how to handle this lately (esp. when the situation is different and I have two coldcallers with position on me instead of just one) it seems to me that I should be check/folding this instead of fighting over it with my lousy A-high. The chance that I get even an 8 to fold seems marginal.

[King Yao]

I'd bet on the Flop. This does two things : 1. it allows me to possibly win the pot right there. 2. when I do hit the Flop, I'd be betting too...I don't want them to know what I have simply by my actions.

if two players call, I'm checking/folding on Turn (assuming unimproved).

if only one player calls, it depends on how he plays. If he's a guy who plays passively and calls on Flop and Turn with an inside straight draw, then bet again. It also depends if you have position - if you do, then you can bet, planning on not putting in another bet unless you improve. If he plays trickier (willing to check-raise on Turn), then its more problematic. Then I would tend to check on the Turn (with position), but I would also know that I would make the same play when I actually have a hand (and don't think he has one), so that I can induce him to bluff in other situations where the betting has gone like this.

[MrBig30]

I like the King Yao line. The flop seems like too soon to give it up even against 3 players so I bet at it 95% of the time. After all, winning it right there is not that uncommon. On the turn unimproved I slow down A LOT unless only one opponent, and probably fold to a bet.

Its worse with 2 coldcallers. I might c/f with the AT/Q86r, player / mood dependant /images/graemlins/tongue.gif.

[Grisgra]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd bet on the Flop. This does two things : 1. it allows me to possibly win the pot right there. 2. when I do hit the Flop, I'd be betting too...I don't want them to know what I have simply by my actions.

if two players call, I'm checking/folding on Turn (assuming unimproved).

if only one player calls, it depends on how he plays. If he's a guy who plays passively and calls on Flop and Turn with an inside straight draw, then bet again. It also depends if you have position - if you do, then you can bet, planning on not putting in another bet unless you improve. If he plays trickier (willing to check-raise on Turn), then its more problematic. Then I would tend to check on the Turn (with position), but I would also know that I would make the same play when I actually have a hand (and don't think he has one), so that I can induce him to bluff in other situations where the betting has gone like this.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is my usual line, and it don't seem to be working lately. Could be a sample size problem, I dunno. Part of it is that nobody, and I mean nobody, respects the early open-raiser when they bet the flop if an ace doesn't come out.

[witeknite]

Isn't that a good thing because they'll call when you bet KQ on a Q82r board?

WiteKnite

[Gazza]

Don't forget that you have missed the flop. Your hand is no longer good the majority of time so you are just trying to salvage what you can or hope to get lucky.
The King Yao line is good except I don't bother checking my good hands behind too often in the party 10-20 6 max, at least not against the loose guys. In other games you should obviously do this a lot more.

Gazza

[Grisgra]

But they always have AQ in those cases /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

[Guy McSucker]

King Yao gave you the right line, and you already knew it was the right line.

I think when running bad to middling it is very easy to think that these kinds of hands are the ones costing you money, because if you miss the flop a lot you will tend to dribble money away in these pots. I know that's how I feel when things aren't going my way, and several other posters have said the same. Turnipmonster springs to mind.

I would think it's likely that you're not doing much wrong here. You just need to hit a few flops/turns. I guess that at 10/20 you will win these pots unimproved less frequently than at 5/10 because the aggressive opposition will make you lay down on the turn or river, but that will be offset by bigger pots when you do hit.

So plan on hitting.

Guy.

[witeknite]

Except the times that you turn a K. Then they have QQ.

WiteKnite

[MrBig30]

[ QUOTE ]
So plan on hitting.
Guy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds good to me! /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Grisgra]

[ QUOTE ]
So plan on hitting.

Guy.

[/ QUOTE ]

With good advice like that, how can I lose? /images/graemlins/smile.gif