Ed Miller...Help me fold King Jack...!

[ZenMusician]

Good morning all!

I have been using SSHE with great success at FW 4/8 and 5/10 w/k.
HOWEVER, I am ready to confess my weakness...KJ. I believe it is
those 2 or 3 huge pots won when spiking Broadway that are
permanently engraved in my mind! Ed says throw it away, even
the button cannot make this hand profitable, but it seems I
just cannot throw this away for 2 bets in the back. I can lay
down top set and AA KK when I know I'm beat, anyone have
wisdom to share about this horrible trap hand?

YMMV Flame away /images/graemlins/wink.gif Thanks guys,

-ZEN

[crunchy1]

[ QUOTE ]
Ed says throw it away, even the button cannot make this hand profitable,

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't remember reading where Ed says to either (a) throw KJ away or (b) that KJ isn't profitable on the button. KJ is not the greatest hand in the world - but against a couple weak limpers (as I would expect you to find in these games) it can be very profitable!

[ QUOTE ]
but it seems I just cannot throw this away for 2 bets in the back.


[/ QUOTE ]

If you can never get rid of it then you are also playing it against tight/agressive players whose raises most likely have you dominated.

[ QUOTE ]
I can lay down top set and AA KK when I know I'm beat

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the scariest part of your post. If you're tossing these hands away with any regularity (especially in big pots) you must be costing yourself money.

KJ is a fine hand to be playing in the correct situations. It's a solid PF value raise against loose/passive players and an easy fold against tight/aggressives (and/or rocks) who will more often than not have you dominated PF. IMO it's also a good defense hand aginst CO/Button blind stealers. I'm not sure why you want help folding this hand???

[ZenMusician]

Since you do not know me or my game, I will reply nicely!

REREAD SSHE, particularly the preflop hand quizzes to see
precisely the advice I mentioned. I will consider your advice
of course, that's why I asked. I have the determination to
eliminate leaks in my game and will gladly accept critique,
but if you critique my posts, you better do your homework.

btw...The only times I have EVER folded AA or KK I have been
right (i.e. 4 flush boards, sf boards, obvious waking up of a
passive caller, etc.) If that is scary to you, maybe this isn't
the right time for you to try to help other's games.

-ZEN

[brettbrettr]

[ QUOTE ]
Ed says throw it away, even
the button cannot make this hand profitable,

[/ QUOTE ]

Never happened.

[QTip]

Even better...

In the preflop hand categories section, you'll find KJo in the little offsuit broadways category, in which it's recommended to raise late if there are 1 or 2 weak limpers in order to fold the blinds and get it shorthanded with your KJo and weak limpers.

[ZenMusician]

[ QUOTE ]
Even better...

In the preflop hand categories section, you'll find KJo in the little offsuit broadways category, in which it's recommended to raise late if there are 1 or 2 weak limpers in order to fold the blinds and get it shorthanded with your KJo and weak limpers.

[/ QUOTE ]

Correct. I have found, however, that even passive players...(consider the source, LIVE games at Foxwoods)...will limp with AJ and KQ which is usually how I get into trouble when K or J hits. Without a good category to place your opponents in, who has +EV calling (or raising) 3+ limpers here?

-ZEN

[QTip]

In general with 3+, we're just limping. I think this is one of those scenarios where you have to be familiar with your opponents postflop play in order to minimize you're losses. If they limped in with AJ and only a J falls and they just call you down...fine. Their mistake for not raising. That's why you'll see a profit in the long run with these LP-P players. They pay you off enough limping with KT, KT, J9....etc to show a profit.

[crunchy1]

[ QUOTE ]
Since you do not know me or my game, I will reply nicely!

[/ QUOTE ]

You can reply any way you like - I don't take offense to forum debating. As for your game - you're correct - I don't know. And no one else who might reply to this thread - least they play with you at FW - will no your game either (so it's irrelevant). The only posts I find from you (I did do some homework!) are regarding your bad beats and something about chiken fingers.....

[ QUOTE ]
REREAD SSHE, particularly the preflop hand quizzes to see
precisely the advice I mentioned. I will consider your advice
of course, that's why I asked. I have the determination to
eliminate leaks in my game and will gladly accept critique,
but if you critique my posts, you better do your homework.

[/ QUOTE ]

#1 - I'm not critiquing anything - you've asked for advice and I analyzed the information you've presented and gave my opinion.

#2 - I should re-read SSHE - everyone should - over and over and over again.

#3 - Unfortunately I don't have SSHE available to refer to as I write this (I think I need to get a second copy to keep at work) but, if you're referring to the hand quizzes you are referring to one or two situations that he describes. You are thinking of one specific hand where I think it's best to think in terms of types or ranges of hands. As I said previously - KJ (and for that matter KT, QJ, QT, etc...) can be great dominating hands against loose passive opponents who will limp and then call down with lesser hands. These players will also not charge you the max (or their raises will provide for obvious folds) when they do have to goods vs your 'KJ-type' holdings. On the other hand - against tight agressive players these hands are most likely -EV (unless you are the greatest postflop player in the world).

[ QUOTE ]
btw...The only times I have EVER folded AA or KK I have been
right (i.e. 4 flush boards, sf boards, obvious waking up of a
passive caller, etc.) If that is scary to you, maybe this isn't
the right time for you to try to help other's games.

[/ QUOTE ]

If what is scary to me??? You folding top pairs/sets??? Not at all. If I peg you as a player that is going to make these big laydowns when you think that you're beat - I'm going to play passively PF/Flop against you and then come out betting when the scare card hits - I wouldn't ever need to have a hand to win against you. A scary board or passive caller "waking-up" are not singular reasons to fold big pairs/top sets.

I don't know your game and I don't know the players you play against. However, if the players you regulary play against know that you are capable of making these big laydowns - they are going to regularly put you to the test - this is NOT what you want. If you are playing these hands aggressively PF and then slowing down when 'scare cards' hit any player, loose/passive/weak/tight/aggressive/etc..., is going to try and throw a raise in there against you in the hopes that you'll lay down. This is WAY BAD!! It is not the image you want other players to have of you as it makes worse players play better against you.

[chief444]

I'm sure KJ should be a profitable hand on the button.

[ZenMusician]

Great points Q...thanks!

OK Crunchy...I am starting to like you for some reason /images/graemlins/wink.gif
You make decent points, thank you for that, and as for
making big laydowns, I think you identify a major weakness
in many SSHE games, folding too damn much! I did have this
problem, and maybe now I call too damn much, but I would
honestly rather have someone assume I know nothing and
give pointers than to go over my head (it IS possible).

BTW...we can't all have 2000+ posts and a newbie on 2+2 is
not necessarily a newbie to poker, so in response to the
chicken fingers comment....DON'T knock 'em till you tried
'em, and ps, that was a restaurant question so if that was a dig
it's not a good one /images/graemlins/wink.gif

PEACE!

-ZEN

[Entity]

You're gonna have to post the hand you're thinking about.

Yes, there are some players against whom, when they limp in EP, I would fold KJo on the Button. But to go as far as to say Ed advocates folding KJo on the Button all the time is wrong. Limping (and raising) with this hand on the button is good -- I fold KJo in EP, but raise it in MP/LP frequently.

Rob

[Fat Nicky]

Here are my guidelines for playing KJo in a full ring:

-I fold KJo in the 1st three positions.
-I raise if no one else has raised from MP1 to the button with the following sub-guidlines.
-If there are two or more limpers to me and I am in MP1 to MP3, I limp.
-If there are three or more limpers to me and I am in CO or the button, I limp.
-With two limpers or less, raise from the SB, otherwise limp.
-Never cold call.
-Don't call legitimate raises from the BB

Of course, things change depending on the texture of the game, but these are my general guidelines.

[iagainsti]

Yes,

I seem to recall that, in late position, any two unsuited cards 10 or higher are playable. Against a raise, however, toss KJo.

BTW, I think that learning NOT to call raises with hands like KJo, in any position, was one of the most important things I've learned from SSH.

Now, Zen, LOOK DIRECTLY "Who is reading this post?" --

(sorry, inside zen joke...)

[crunchy1]

[ QUOTE ]
OK Crunchy...I am starting to like you for some reason /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

What can I say - I'm a likeable guy!! /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[ QUOTE ]
in response to the
chicken fingers comment....DON'T knock 'em till you tried
'em, and ps, that was a restaurant question so if that was a dig
it's not a good one /images/graemlins/wink.gif


[/ QUOTE ]

Not a dig and I love chickens fingers too (Tyson Crispy Chicken Strips are my favorite - excellent addition chopped up on a salad or just as good as finger food with some BBQ or Sweet + Sour sauce!!!)

[colgin]

[ QUOTE ]
KJ. . . . Ed says throw it away, even
the button cannot make this hand profitable, but it seems I
just cannot throw this away for 2 bets in the back.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think your post has confused some people. It seems that you are suggesting that SSHE recommends you throw away KJo even from the Button. People are correctly telling you that thatis WRONG! However, you may be saying that SSHE says you can't play KJo for TWO BETS even from the Button. That is right. Position does not make up for the risk of domination if you are playing against a raise. Now there may be some situations, such as CO raising on a steal-raise, where you could actually re-raise on the Button with KJo, but the rest of the time this mustbe mucked against a legitimate raise. You now the correct answer. Just follow through with the appropriate actions.

Best of luck.

Colgin

[JackWilson]

[ QUOTE ]
Here are my guidelines for playing KJo in a full ring:

-I fold KJo in the 1st three positions.

[/ QUOTE ]

Did you use to play it in EP and decided you don't like it? I seem to remember a long thread about playing KJo and how it is +EV in EP.

Anyway, I play it from UTG+1 and UTG+2 and it's been +EV for me so far but obviously this is quite a small sample size (only about 25K hands total in my PT database and this is specific hand + specific position)

[ErrantNight]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
KJ. . . . Ed says throw it away, even
the button cannot make this hand profitable, but it seems I
just cannot throw this away for 2 bets in the back.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think your post has confused some people. It seems that you are suggesting that SSHE recommends you throw away KJo even from the Button. People are correctly telling you that thatis WRONG! However, you may be saying that SSHE says you can't play KJo for TWO BETS even from the Button. That is right. Position does not make up for the risk of domination if you are playing against a raise. Now there may be some situations, such as CO raising on a steal-raise, where you could actually re-raise on the Button with KJo, but the rest of the time this mustbe mucked against a legitimate raise. You now the correct answer. Just follow through with the appropriate actions.

Best of luck.

Colgin

[/ QUOTE ]

[bobbyi]

[ QUOTE ]
If what is scary to me??? You folding top pairs/sets??? Not at all. If I peg you as a player that is going to make these big laydowns when you think that you're beat - I'm going to play passively PF/Flop against you and then come out betting when the scare card hits - I wouldn't ever need to have a hand to win against you.

[/ QUOTE ]
And what good will it do you? If there are seven people in the pot and you raise the turn, maybe this guy will fold. But everyone else will call. This is a 4/8 game he's talking about. So now don't "have a hand" and you've raised the turn against five opponents. And you think this is going to be a winning strategy because this one guy is capable of folding? That's just silly. In a 4/8 game, he is playing correctly against many (not all) opponents by folding when encountering too much aggression. I used to play that game all the time, and there are some people who will never raise the turn unless they have the nuts, and sometimes not even then. If you are routinely calling these people down with one pair, you are throwing money away. Does that mean that you fold an overpair everytime there is a bet and a raise on the turn? Obviously not. But, as much as some people don't want to hear it, learning which opponents you need to fold against will increase your profits just as learning when to raise will. If you are blindly calling down because of a dogma that it is somehow "weak" and "unmanly" to ever fold a pretty looking pair, then that means that you are not winning as much possible. Obviously it would be wrong to fold against you, as you have shown. But the majority of opponents in the foxwoods 4/8 game are not you. The fact that he would be wrong to fold against you does nothing to prove that he can never fold against anyone.

[crunchy1]

Bobby, Unfortunately you have taken some of my comments out of context and misrepresented some of the points I was trying to make - Let me clarify....

First let me say that in reference to the FW game - I don't know the Zen as a player and I don't know the other players (types) that play there and I don't know the types of games that occur there because I've never played there. My comments are meant as generalizations to most SSHE games and obviously player to player adjustments need to be analyzed and made on a case by case basis.

Zen made a comment at the end of his OP regarding his ability to lay-down big pairs/top sets when he knows he's beat. When I see someone make a comment like this in the context of learning to fold KJ it makes me think: "Uh-oh - this guy is one of those players who's over-thinking his weak opponents and could be losing a lot getting pushed out of pots be weaker hands/bluffs". This led to my comments on not laying down those types of big hands in a typical loose/passive SSHE game.

Obviously if you know your players you can make lay-downs like this if you're confident in your read. I'm not suggesting that you should never lay down a big hand in the face of aggression; I'm suggesting that in an average SSHE game with the typical loose/passive/weak players it is correct to call down more often and fold less often - even when you think you're beat by a loose/passive that leads out the turn/river or the board paired or the flush card came. Maybe in your FW games the players don't like to bluff and if that's the case the folds are in order - but from my experience I routinely see players taking shots with nothing hands on these types of boards thinking that they're Chris MoneyMaker at the final table in the WSOP.

I feel my point regarding a player who will lay-down hands was right-on-target. I'm not saying that Zen is this type of player because I don't know. What I do know is that even bad players will notice a player who routinely folds to aggression and begin to take shots at him. Acquiring this image, especially in a LIVE game, is a cardinal sin as you have enticed a weak player to improve his play against you. Even if you called down a scary board once with your big pair/set and lost you still retain the image that you're not going to be pushed off a hand. Obviously this concept applies less in multi-way pots but even pots that start out multi-way usually end up 2-3 handed by the river. The river is when the 3rd/4th flush card hits and that's when the fold is made. The point isn't really about a weak player actually running over him - the point is that even if a weak player tries to run over him that weak player is playing better than if he/she was just their usual loose/passive self. Again - this may not be how Zen plays - I was just responding to a comment that I read.

As far as starting hands and laydowns - I read a previous hand post from Zen where a FW player never raised w/top set. I also noted your comments about the passivity of the FW games. Factors such as these should make you more inclined to bet/raise with your premiuim holdings (if the players are loose then hands like KJ also have raising value as they can often be the best hand PF). Even if you lose at showdown you are winning in the long run when these types of players are not charging you the maximum price for showing down against their nut hands. I know it sucks when you bet, bet, bet and then lose to the pure nuts but that can't discourage you from betting your good holdings.

[bobbyi]

[ QUOTE ]
Bobby, Unfortunately you have taken some of my comments out of context and misrepresented some of the points I was trying to make

[/ QUOTE ]
You said that:
[ QUOTE ]
If you're tossing these hands away with any regularity (especially in big pots) you must be costing yourself money.

[/ QUOTE ]
I was objecting to the "must". If you are throwing away good hands with regularity, you are costing yourself money in many games. However, there are some games where you are not. So it is not true that he must be costing himself money by folding.

[ QUOTE ]
My comments are meant as generalizations to most SSHE games and obviously player to player adjustments need to be analyzed and made on a case by case basis.

[/ QUOTE ]
Ok. I agree that in most games your statement is true. My objection was that you had stated his money loss as something that must be true (implying all games) rather than something that is true in general. I agree in the general case.

[ QUOTE ]
"Uh-oh - this guy is one of those players who's over-thinking his weak opponents and could be losing a lot getting pushed out of pots be weaker hands/bluffs". ... I routinely see players taking shots with nothing hands on these types of boards thinking that they're Chris MoneyMaker at the final table in the WSOP... What I do know is that even bad players will notice a player who routinely folds to aggression and begin to take shots at him. Acquiring this image, especially in a LIVE game, is a cardinal sin as you have enticed a weak player to improve his play against you.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think that you are the one overthinking the weak players in a 4/8 game. When a 90 year old woman who has never raised in her life with less than a flush raises me on the turn in a five-handed pot and I have unimproved pocket jacks, the first thought that goes through my head is not "I bet she is trying to imitate those guys on TV and is making a big move to try to represent the flush and buy this pot from four people. Even though she appeared to be reading a book, she has really been carefully watching my play for the past two hours through the corner of her bifocals and has observed that I occassionally fold and has been waiting for the right moment to spring. I am going to three-bet with jacks". My thought is "oh, apparently jacks are no good". Anything else is overthinking. Most people give way too much importance to the idea of "image" in these games. For the most part, we are discussing bad, unobservant players. I agree that if some WPT-watching sunglasses-wearing kid raises me, I am going to consider that he is trying to push me around, but there are plenty of people in these games against whom worrying about your "image" means that you are massively overthinking things. These are not high limit players. These are not online players. These are people in a b&m 4/8 game.

[ QUOTE ]
Obviously this concept applies less in multi-way pots but even pots that start out multi-way usually end up 2-3 handed by the river.

[/ QUOTE ]
2-3 handed on the river?! This is a live 4/8 game not a 20/40.