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View Full Version : GREAT article by Lou Krieger in CardPlayer.


Pepsquad
02-24-2005, 06:24 AM
Thought I'd post it here. For the many who post the "Will this ever end?" threads - this is a great great therapy read.

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Some years back, Mike Caro wrote about a particularly unhappy state that many poker players have found themselves in, one in which they are “beyond pain.” When you get there, nothing matters anymore. You’ve given up, are utterly helpless, and have been beaten and beaten for so long and so hard that you no longer feel the blows. When poker players reach this state, there’s only one goal left: to lose every last cent in their pockets so that they can go home, curl up in a corner, and whimper pathetically.

Sound a tad familiar? We’ve all been there, or been close. Perhaps Mike discovered the true nature of this state of pathos through his own personal experience. Like many other states of mind that have pathological features, this one has been well studied. In fact, it is a well-known psychological condition called learned helplessness . We’re going to take a look at it here because what psychologists have learned about this condition can inform us and help us to avoid it.

Since Arthur Reber just happens to be a professor of psychology, we’re going back to the classroom for a bit. Don’t worry, there won’t be any “short quizzes” at the end.

The original research on learned helplessness was carried out back in the 1960s by Dr. Martin Seligman, a psychologist at the University of Pennsylvania . Seligman discovered that learned helplessness occurs when inescapable punishment is administered. The original work was done with dogs. The experiments went like this: A dog was put in a 12 foot-by-2 foot box with an electrifiable grid floor and a barrier separating the two sides. The barrier could be raised to allow access to both sides or lowered so that the dog was stuck on whichever side it currently was on.

Without warning, the barrier was lowered, the lights dimmed slightly, and the electric grid on the dog’s side turned on. The dog howled, leaped in the air, and fought like hell to try to get past the barrier. But all was for naught. The dogs often continued their aggressive assaults for many minutes. (These were brutal experiments that would never be done today; this was before ethics committees.) But in the end, they just gave up, lay down, and continued whimpering. Learned helplessness had set in. When future shocks occurred, they didn’t resist. They just lay there and took it.

When the barrier was raised, they did not crawl to the safe side. They were beaten animals. Canine “therapy” consisted of dragging them over to the safe side tim e after tim e, and even this was often insufficient to restore their initiative.

Sounds kind of familiar, doesn’t it? Substitute a bunch of bad beats in a row and you might just feel like one of Seligman’s dogs. When this happens, you are beyond pain. And like those helpless, hapless dogs, when you are in this state, even winning a pot or two doesn’t help. It’s like being dragged over to the other side of the box. You still sit there and wait, because you know they’re going to start hammering on you again. You don’t shift back to your normal, aggressive game. You are in a state of learned helplessness, waiting for that other shoe to drop.

But here’s the very interesting part of Seligman’s research. If you allow the animals just a couple of opportunities to escape by leaving the barrier up before administering those shocks, you psychologically immunize them from that pathological state of learned helplessness. Now, they will take the shock when the barrier is lowered, but they won’t become the pathetic beasts seen earlier, and when the barrier is removed, they immediately show that they remember their first experiences and jump over to the safe side.

While this example is an extreme case, learned helplessness is fairly common in everyday life. For example, ask people to solve some relatively straightforward arithmetic problems. Have some of them work in a room in which there is a loud and annoying noise in the background, and others work in a quiet room. If you tell the first group that there isn’t anything anyone can do about the noise, their performance will be dramatically lower than those who worked in quiet.

OK, you think the sound is causing the poor performance. Nope, it’s the element of inescapability. If you give them a button and say, “Look, we know the sound is annoying. If you really need to turn it off, just press the button,” it’s remarkable, but virtually no one uses the button. What’s more, their performance will be the same as those who worked in silence.

We hope you see the point. It isn’t the negative aspects of the environment that cause the problems; it is whether or not the individuals (dogs as well as people) believe that they have the capacity to assert themselves. If they do, they look a lot like solid poker players. They survive all of the shock assaults — the river two-outers, runs of spirit-crushing drawouts, and days and weeks of nothing but bad cards. Like the folks who knew they could turn off the pain if they absolutely had to, they understand that they are merely temporary vic tim s of random processes. They know the barrier will eventually be lifted and there is money on the other side.

So, how can poker players immunize themselves from learned helplessness, from falling into that terrible state in which they are beyond pain? Unfortunately, there’s no simple answer. But if you understand the game well, you can psychologically protect yourself from becoming “helpless.” You need to catch yourself whenever you feel a sense of despair coming on and think of the good tim es, when the deck hit you in the head, when the barrier was up and a simple jump to the other side provided safety and shelter. While you may feel as though you will never win another hand no matter how long you live, it isn’t true and it won’t happen. But if you think yourself into a helpless state, you might become like one of Seligman’s dogs, curled up helplessly and wallowing in self-pity.

One of our favorite movies is Papillion . We admire the astonishing psychological resilience of Steve McQueen’s title character, which, like the most resistant of Seligman’s critters, cannot be beaten. He has survived decades on Devil’s Island , the most horrific of prisons, living through beatings, torture, and extended terms in solitary as punishment for failed escape attempts. He never submits. He knows that eventually he will find a crack in the barrier. Indeed, at the end, as he floats out to sea on his raft of coconuts lashed together, he shakes his fist at the sky and yells, “I’m still here, you bastards.” Papillion would have made a hell of a poker player.

steamboatin
02-24-2005, 09:03 AM
Thanks, great post.

sisyphus
02-24-2005, 10:38 AM
acceptance....defiance......none of these will work. What is required is sublime indifference to the result.

IsaacW
02-24-2005, 11:16 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Thought I'd post it here.

[/ QUOTE ]
Please don't do this. It is copyright infringement. Respect Mr. Kreiger and just provide a link (http://www.cardplayer.com/poker_magazine/archives/?a_id=14563&m_id=65556).

Dan Mezick
02-24-2005, 11:17 AM
Great post and a very interesting read.

[ QUOTE ]
So, how can poker players immunize themselves from learned helplessness, from falling into that terrible state in which they are beyond pain? Unfortunately, there’s no simple answer.

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe there is a simple answer, which is:


[ QUOTE ]
Always take 100% responsibility for all of your results.

[/ QUOTE ]


If you accept the responsibility, you are never the helpless victim.

The Steve McQueen character took 100% responsibility for all his results.

If you do not accept 100% of the responsibility for all your results, you open the door to:

1. A strong belief in luck
2. Sloth, and lazy thinking
3. A belief that effort (work) is futile
4. Thought and attitude of helplessness to various degrees.

Is it really this simple? For me, yes

Demana
02-24-2005, 02:17 PM
Hi Dan!

At first, I thought that belief in the mythical *long run* was the key to surviving learned helplessness, but I think your post makes a lot more sense. By taking responsibility, you take control over any and every aspect of the yourself and can objectively analyze how you are feeling and how you are interacting with the game.

If someone instead choose to think that the bad beats were a part of the long run, they would have already fallen over the edge into learned helplessness without realizing that they could just get up and walk away and make the bad beats stop.

Kaz The Original
02-24-2005, 03:46 PM
This inhumane research disgusts me. Is no one else extremely offended by tortoring dogs?

toots
02-24-2005, 03:59 PM
Had to study this case undergrad.

It was really worse than described. I won't get into details unless you want me to, but curare was also involved.

Mr. Seligman was rewarded by being later elected president of the (big) APA.

KaiShin
02-24-2005, 05:05 PM
[ QUOTE ]
This inhumane research disgusts me. Is no one else extremely offended by tortoring dogs?

[/ QUOTE ]
It was a reality of psychological research in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Many of the experiments carried out in those days would never, ever have been allowed today, yet we still benefit from the not insignificant amount of knowledge gained from those experiments. Its a paradox that most scientists prefer to ignore.

Mayhap
02-24-2005, 05:08 PM
Thanks for posting this article.
I've noticed myself checking on the river quite a bit lately with the best hand.
I've been chalking it up to caution but it might be the LH-R strain of the LH virus.
/M

twang
02-24-2005, 07:09 PM
[ QUOTE ]
This inhumane research disgusts me. Is no one else extremely offended by tortoring dogs?

[/ QUOTE ]
I am. I am also amazed how easily and wideley accepted the analogies between animal and human behavoir was, and to some extent, still is within this field.

toots
02-24-2005, 08:48 PM
That's ok. Most current psychological research on humans is done on college freshmen, as if that's a representative sample of humanity...

carlo
02-25-2005, 12:30 PM
Animal studies can never relate to humans-they are not the same. The only thing this study displays is the absolute ignorance of the author or his panderers including Kreiger. The study also shows man at his worst-egocentric, without vision, and guided only by crippling ambition.

You don't have to be a genius to know what will happen to an animal if he is continually electrocuted. A little thinking will ascertain this without the study. It goes without saying that thought is totally irrelevant at the halls of ivy in this instance.

Despicable--could go on forever. Animals do not think! Humans do but not always.

regards,
carlo

BluffTHIS!
02-25-2005, 12:41 PM
[ QUOTE ]
This inhumane research disgusts me. Is no one else extremely offended by tortoring dogs?

[/ QUOTE ]

The subject dogs here were the famous 'poker dog' breeds you so often see in pictures playing cards around a table. Being subject to this type of research is part of their job description.

Grisgra
02-25-2005, 12:53 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Animal studies can never relate to humans-they are not the same.

. . .

Animals do not think! Humans do but not always.

regards,
carlo

[/ QUOTE ]

Maroon.

carlo
02-25-2005, 01:11 PM
Clarify, what is "Maroon"?


/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

regards,
carlo

Clarkmeister
02-25-2005, 01:37 PM
[ QUOTE ]
acceptance....defiance......none of these will work. What is required is sublime indifference to the result.

[/ QUOTE ]

Great post, and absolutely 100% true.

I give this post /images/graemlins/diamond.gif /images/graemlins/diamond.gif /images/graemlins/diamond.gif /images/graemlins/diamond.gif /images/graemlins/diamond.gif out of a possible /images/graemlins/diamond.gif /images/graemlins/diamond.gif /images/graemlins/diamond.gif /images/graemlins/diamond.gif /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

royaltrux
02-25-2005, 01:38 PM
If you think that the grand human is that much different than animals you're deluded. You've just discounted decades of instinctual research.

You are putting too much importance on the advancement of the human race. Take the first man and their reaction to fire. You don't think they were running around screaming like apes? People always seem to put their status, motives, race, religion etc... above others mistakenly thinking that they and their group are far more advanced than those lowly others.

It's like when Americans say they live in the greatest country and know what's best for the world. It's short-sided thinking.

I am an animal lover and abhor what they did in the name of science in the past. It's inconscionable. But to say there are no links to animal and human behaviour is woefully inept and unsound reasoning.

exeph
02-25-2005, 02:06 PM
So did you not read the part about the psych test on people, or did you just feel like being a jerk?

toots
02-25-2005, 02:55 PM
Hey, don't knock it.

I think jerklike behavior has some evolutionary benefits that we haven't quite nailed down.

carlo
02-25-2005, 03:27 PM
You're living in the muck and fail to see the nobility in Man(all men). This is not about being an animal lover but of knowing one's place in the spirit of things.

Man is not part of the animal kingdom nor has ever been. In this specific instance the animal research was inept and egregious to say the least. The clarifying statement is how does Man differ from the animal kingdom and does this make a difference in medical/scientific research? I can only plead to your understanding in that the latest(in an evolutionary sense) part of the human spirit is his "I" which indeed separates Man from the animal(in the best sense).

This is not a matter of me being better than you but of scientific clarity as to the differences between Man and Animal and the healing properties which are contained in the "I".

That there are animal instincts is true but in no way does this mandate that the human spirit acts instinctually like some mechanistic humuculus as this type of "science" presupposes.

I will agree that there may be a place for animal research but in no way will the nature of Man be found in this activity.

In this specific instance it takes no great reasoning power to realize the if I beat another to a pulp he will probably plead for mercy and/or lie limp in numbness and pain. If I give him an avenue of escape he (if able) will certainly escape. If he had to tie a rope in a sailor's knot and therefore repel down a 20 foot ledge he certainly would have been able to do this as apposed to the animal.

There is a difference between Man and Animal and it is the most important difference. Man is not and has never been a part of the animal kingdom.

regards,
carlo

carlo
02-25-2005, 03:30 PM
Careful what you believe,little child, it might bite you in the ass. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

regards,
carlo

bilyin
02-25-2005, 03:44 PM
May I have the details of the horrible thing they did?

toots
02-25-2005, 04:06 PM
Well, first they fixed the dogs so they couldn't jump the barrier, then demonstrated learned helplessness.

Then came the claim that maybe the dogs were just learning to tense their muscles to somehow minimize the jolt, thus lessening the urge to jump. So, they put the dogs in a harness and shot them full of curare so they had no muscle control during the "training" phase of the experiment.

So, then they thought that maybe the dogs were just learning to withstand the voltage, therefore not needing to jump. So, they reran it, with the curare, with the voltages set at near fatal levels.

Then they agreed that they'd proven learned helplessness.

royaltrux
02-25-2005, 05:19 PM
If by "spirit of things" and "human spirit is his "I"" you are trying to infer man's stature as God's (any form)creation then we are going to have to agree to disagree because that's what I'm talking about by putting man's value over everything else.

carlo
02-25-2005, 06:02 PM
This has nothing to do with my placing "value" on anything and has everything to do with seeing the difference.

You are not a mineral,plant or animal and the differences should be noted by thinking,not as a value judgement, but as a objective reality. Mishing everything up into one pot does nothing for the truthfulness which is present in each kingdom.

The bringing everything together into one fantastic "swoop" of thought is unclear thinking and not based on reality. "See the difference", and the broad generalization will take care of itself.

regards,
carlo

Kenrick
03-04-2005, 05:30 AM
[ QUOTE ]
You don't have to be a genius to know what will happen to an animal if he is continually electrocuted. A little thinking will ascertain this without the study. It goes without saying that thought is totally irrelevant at the halls of ivy in this instance.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you. I think most classically-trained psychologists don't really know what they are doing, (which I bet most would admit if they are honest), and articles such as this show me the typical writer on psychology has nothing interesting to say. Give me a f'n monthly column, I'm beggin' ya.

Goodnews
03-04-2005, 12:45 PM
imo i think that the stanford prison experiment is much more disturbing.

AncientPC
03-06-2005, 02:57 PM
[ QUOTE ]
You're living in the muck and fail to see the nobility in Man(all men). This is not about being an animal lover but of knowing one's place in the spirit of things.

Man is not part of the animal kingdom nor has ever been. In this specific instance the animal research was inept and egregious to say the least. The clarifying statement is how does Man differ from the animal kingdom and does this make a difference in medical/scientific research? I can only plead to your understanding in that the latest(in an evolutionary sense) part of the human spirit is his "I" which indeed separates Man from the animal(in the best sense).

This is not a matter of me being better than you but of scientific clarity as to the differences between Man and Animal and the healing properties which are contained in the "I".

That there are animal instincts is true but in no way does this mandate that the human spirit acts instinctually like some mechanistic humuculus as this type of "science" presupposes.

I will agree that there may be a place for animal research but in no way will the nature of Man be found in this activity.

In this specific instance it takes no great reasoning power to realize the if I beat another to a pulp he will probably plead for mercy and/or lie limp in numbness and pain. If I give him an avenue of escape he (if able) will certainly escape. If he had to tie a rope in a sailor's knot and therefore repel down a 20 foot ledge he certainly would have been able to do this as apposed to the animal.

There is a difference between Man and Animal and it is the most important difference. Man is not and has never been a part of the animal kingdom.

regards,
carlo

[/ QUOTE ]

No.

You fail to see the shortcomings and self-destructive behavior of humans.

carlo
03-06-2005, 08:05 PM
No, I see them as best I can==the destructive behavior,emotional incongruity and loss of self. But you see, an animal cannot and does not judge his moral stance whereas a human being is ever involved with morality in an individual and social sense.

Man has work to do, is ever working, but the answers are earned , not given.

The animal lives in an amoral atmosphere where how can one fault the hyena as he closes in for a kill on the lion? LIke it or believe it or not, the crassest of individuals lives in an atmosphere of moral tonality which is specifically human, yes human, and only human.

regards,
carlo

royaltrux
03-06-2005, 11:59 PM
Morals are a man-made invention

carlo
03-07-2005, 12:36 AM
More to the point, morality is intertwined with the human garment in body, soul, and spirit. Man lives in one great cosmic morality play in which Man's progress is effected by a moral progression in thought, feeling and will.

The "knowledge of good and evil" is no abstract concept but a living reality in the life of all of Man.

regards,
carlo